Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:26pm I dont blame the technology! I didnt say that at all.

The problem with heat pumps is probably plumbers who either dont know how to calculate heat loads and radiator sizes that choose inadequate kit. And, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-out.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... co-decade/

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-sourc ... he-answer/

Al
So, not daily, and only in the right wing press, owned by people who are prominent in climate change denial circles. The blog is clearly written by someone who doesn't understand thermodynamics ("latent heat from the air"!).

I do agree there are significant problems associated with retrofitting heat pumps, but it would be good to have a rational discourse rather than one mediated by Mail headlines or those pushed by the Barclay brothers.

And a reminder that ultimately, we don't have a choice; fossil fuels are finite and climate change is real. So it would be better to work out how to move these technologies forward rather than pretend we can all burn gas forever.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

No political angle here. Many examples of disaster storys about poor heat pump installations, which, as I say is in all sorts of publications, not only right wing ones. I dont believe anyone needs a lecture about the need to cut carbon emissions.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 1:13pm No political angle here.
The Mail and Telegraph both have a very strong climate change denial angle, particularly the telegraph.
Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:43pm I do agree there are significant problems associated with retrofitting heat pumps, but it would be good to have a rational discourse rather than one mediated by Mail headlines or those pushed by the Barclay brothers.
offroader wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:09pm Heat pumps are without doubt impressive. However, forcing an expensive heat pump installation into thermally inefficient old housing stock when electricity is both expensive and environmentally damaging just doesn't seem like the best solution to me.
If you (not you personally, the world in general) address the current shortcomings then people will choose heat pumps

For me the die is cast. A new gas boiler is on order. I will immediately reduce my carbon footprint and running costs significantly. In 5 years time the boiler will have nearly paid itself off leaving me in a position to reconsider my options. Maybe ill use the money not spent on an ASHP to add some solar power and carry out some thermal efficiency upgrades.
My experience in tech also leads me to believe that in 5 years time ASHP technology will have improved significantly, reducing the cost of installation and ownership.

It's not the immediate switch to zero emissions life which seems the only way to appease the green lobby. Its my pragmatic stepping stone
ANTONISH wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 6:46pm Much of our existing housing stock was built to very low insulation standards - that should be a priority.

All of the above makes sense, to me. There has been something of a crazy polarization of opinion which doesn't make sense, likely spurred on by some HP installations by people who didn't understand what was needed and the threat from Government that gas boilers won't be allowed sometime sooner rather than later. Just as we moved from steam power to diesel, we're steadily moving from gas heating to electricity - like it or not!

Perhaps the single biggest problem is that we've spent decades heating our homes inefficiently and building them knowing this. Convection of warm air suits homes with low thermal mass which aren't occupied for most of the time and whose occupants aren't physically active, but it's less efficient (and less pleasant) than a mass radiating heat, or a mass conducting heat (directly to the body).

The ideal and most effective, most efficient method is heating a solid floor mass with either a heat pump or solar thermal vacuum tubes running on solar power for most of the year. With an engineered lag of four or five hours between maximum heat output from the pump/tubes and maximum heat output from the floor, the solar energy can be put to best use; a well-insulated house should be able to remain warm for a couple of days in the coldest weather after two hour of sunshine. Clearly in the very darkest weeks, Grid electricity/gas/wood will be needed.
Last edited by Biospace on 21 Mar 2023, 1:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 1:13pm No political angle here. Many examples of disaster storys about poor heat pump installations, which, as I say is in all sorts of publications, not only right wing ones. I dont believe anyone needs a lecture about the need to cut carbon emissions.

Al
Yet only right wing rags, and an article that has no idea what the S in SCOP stands for.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:26pmAnd, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.
Postage stamp radiators are not designed for any sane heating system and only work by strapping double sized boilers on to them and thrashing them for short periods, which also prevents the boilers condensing. The only reason the UK has gotten away with slapping 26kW boilers into homes needing less than 10kW of heating for so long has been selling north sea gas off cheap instead of using the profits to set up sovereign wealth funds and transition early, similar to Norway but ideally leaving some fossil products in the ground.

There's a whole lot of learning needed all over the place but no sign it happening at the scale needed.

So instead of adopting the 150-year -old heat pump tech, people are scared into signing up for another 5+ years paying to suck Vlad's gassy teat, with greenwash like hydrogen -ready and HVO which are more to do with Big Oil keeping a fossil -ready market open.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 1:24pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 1:13pm No political angle here. Many examples of disaster storys about poor heat pump installations, which, as I say is in all sorts of publications, not only right wing ones. I dont believe anyone needs a lecture about the need to cut carbon emissions.
Yet only right wing rags, and an article that has no idea what the S in SCOP stands for.
I especially like the claim that pumps only achieve 400-500% efficiency at air temperatures of 20°c. I was looking at my pump's data plate yesterday and it should do 480% in air of 7°c. Of course, when it's 20°c out, the heating isn't on, so performance is less relevant because it'll be doing short bursts of water heating for pennies.
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

If all heat pumps were extracting heat from the air, I suppose the gradual heating of our atmosphere would be reduced - but then I remembered all of those pumping heat into the air while working as 'air conditioning'.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

I think it would be fair to say that the biggest issue with the mass adoption of heat pumps in the UK isn't the technology itself for the lack of skilled individuals and companies to install them.

If a house is reasonably insulated and a heat pump system is properly designed to match the house, there really isn't much scope to cock it up.

The UK has an incredibly mild climate compared to just about anywhere in Northern Europe. It shouldn't be that hard to heat our homes.

An interesting and potentially useful side function of air/air heatpumps is that they can serve as dehumidifiers. When we lived in Scotland, summers were occasionally OK but mostly damp and cool. So many days where it'd be 12-15c and chucking it down outside. This would result in the house sitting at 17-18c internally and up to 80% RH. You could dry the house a little by putting the fire on (which we sometimes did) but you'd soon overheat.

In those instances a dehumidifier would have been really useful, and would have improved indoor air quality and comfort.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

From what I have seen the problems seem to be inadequate sizing of the heat pump itself and more often the radiator sizes which, in retrofit situations have been originally sized for gas and oil.
I know one lady who wanted to keep all her old cast iron radiators and of course her heating is totally inadequate. She also didnt want the fan box near her house which didnt help.

Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 21 Mar 2023, 2:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 2:10pm The UK has an incredibly mild climate compared to just about anywhere in Northern Europe. It shouldn't be that hard to heat our homes.
No, but there are powerful entrenched interests in keeping most Brits dependent on Big Oil, so many media moguls are happy to disparage heat pumps, demonize insulation advocates and disinform about measures to enable active travel for short everyday needs.

All while the gullible believe and reshare whatever their media bubble is feeding them, without even the simplest checking of basic facts. You know, like heat pumps only working well at 20°c, stuff that should fail the laugh test.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 2:15pm From what I have seen the problems seem to be inadequate sizing of the heat pump itself and more often the radiator sizes which, in retrofit situations have been sized for gas and oil.
From experience and the widespread use of thermostat valves to prevent a "wrong" radiator hogging the heat output, I doubt most radiators since the mid 1970s have been sized beyond "that will fit under that window / between those doorways". As long as they're not too small, the average British homeowner won't realise. Ironically, this might become useful now.
I know one lady who wanted to keep all her old cast iron radiators and of course her heating is totally inadequate. She also didnt want the fan box near her house which didnt help.
I hope she was warned how much those decisions increase response time and running costs no matter what system. Actually, a gas boiler running a higher temperature would lose even more heat if sited away from the house (due to the larger temperature difference to the air), which arguably it should be due to the combustion pollution and explosion risks. Ever heard of a heat pump explosion killing residents?

But at the end of the day, it's her choice, not the heating system's fault.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

No the oil boiler was in the house which is pretty standard. The installer moved the fan box near the house to remedy the situation but that didnt do anything. She relys on her woodburner now, but even with that the heating is still inadequate.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 1:51pm If all heat pumps were extracting heat from the air, I suppose the gradual heating of our atmosphere would be reduced - but then I remembered all of those pumping heat into the air while working as 'air conditioning'.
Not at all - they heat the atmosphere... in the same way that fridge with it's door open heats a kitchen.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 10:43am
pete75 wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 9:47am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 9:22pm

What you were really doing was suggesting that air source heat pumps can't cope with mild British winters when they are commonly used in Scandanavia, which has far harder winters than we do.
I wonder what insulations standards are like in Sweden compared to here.
Better, but not actually relevant.
The heating load in any house is the same, irrespective of the heat source.
Some can and some can't with British winters. There's a local authority near here that is installing them in council houses and many tenants are complaining they don't produce enough heat when it's very cold. I know a heating surveyor who did a lot of work for that authority prior to the scheme being introduced. She said it was doomed to fail in cold weather because many of the properties really needed expensive insulation work and the council wasn't prepared to spend the money to implement her

Now you may say the systems were badly designed and or installed but that seems to be the case with a lot of systems in the UK. Apparently there's a great shortage trained heat pump engineers with only about a third of the number needed. Without enough trained and qualified engineers design and installation will be a bit hit and miss, as it gives a lot of room for cowboy operators. Two edged sword really. People won't have the things put in because they can't find a decent installer and installers not being trained because people aren't having the systems installed.
So inadequate heating systems are installed and you blame the technology, which is clearly shown to work the world over...
Why am I not shocked?
No, I blame the air pump industry.

Currently the only argument I can see for installing heat pumps is that , as with electric cars, it's better for the environment.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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