Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:16pm No the oil boiler was in the house which is pretty standard. The installer moved the fan box near the house to remedy the situation but that didnt do anything. She relys on her woodburner now, but even with that the heating is still inadequate.

Al
She could have had a split heat pump (at which point the location of the evaporator is much less relevant - within reason of course).

The example isn't a reason why heat pumps don't/won't/can't work - it's an example of someone installing for aesthetics over heat, and then complaining that it looks better than it heats.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jon in Sweden
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Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

mjr wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 2:19pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 2:10pm The UK has an incredibly mild climate compared to just about anywhere in Northern Europe. It shouldn't be that hard to heat our homes.
No, but there are powerful entrenched interests in keeping most Brits dependent on Big Oil, so many media moguls are happy to disparage heat pumps, demonize insulation advocates and disinform about measures to enable active travel for short everyday needs.

All while the gullible believe and reshare whatever their media bubble is feeding them, without even the simplest checking of basic facts. You know, like heat pumps only working well at 20°c, stuff that should fail the laugh test.
I suspect you're right. It's quite sad really.

The estate where my brother lives in Exeter was supposed to be supplied with a large, green, district heating system when it was built in 2018/19. In the end, they just whacked in a massive gas boiler.

Reducing your home's need for energy (insulation) and then heating more efficiently (heat pumps) means that in a fluctuating energy market, you're much less exposed to financial issues. An inefficient house is fine and well when energy is cheap, but disastrous when it's not.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:41pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:16pm No the oil boiler was in the house which is pretty standard. The installer moved the fan box near the house to remedy the situation but that didnt do anything. She relys on her woodburner now, but even with that the heating is still inadequate.

Al
She could have had a split heat pump (at which point the location of the evaporator is much less relevant - within reason of course).

The example isn't a reason why heat pumps don't/won't/can't work - it's an example of someone installing for aesthetics over heat, and then complaining that it looks better than it heats.
No it wasnt. Shes an artist not a plumber or heating technician. She trusted the installer who shouldnt have gone along with the existing rads. The whole point which you keep choosing not to understand is that heat pumps work but many of the people installing them get it wrong! A bunch of incompetents...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 4:52pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:41pm The example isn't a reason why heat pumps don't/won't/can't work - it's an example of someone installing for aesthetics over heat, and then complaining that it looks better than it heats.
No it wasnt. Shes an artist not a plumber or heating technician. She trusted the installer who shouldnt have gone along with the existing rads. The whole point which you keep choosing not to understand is that heat pumps work but many of the people installing them get it wrong! A bunch of incompetents...
So did the installer say that those rads were suitable or were they overruled by aesthetic considerations?
It's a non trivial amount of work to get to the point where you are telling a householder that the rads are undersized, and there is a strong incentive to do the job anyway.

There are incompetent (or corrupt) installers of all sorts of things - how many quotes did she get, did they all say "those radiators will be fine"?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

I have no idea. When she asked me about it I asked whether the installer had replaced the radiators. She said he hadnt and I said thats the problem...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:33pm
Not at all - they heat the atmosphere... in the same way that fridge with it's door open heats a kitchen.
I was considering the overall effect rather than the isolated one, in assuming that a heat pump would be replacing a fossil fuel heating system and that eventually, renewable energy will be their main source of power. :idea:
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pwa »

For the first time this year, when I opened the inner doors to the (unheated) conservatory, the air inside it was warmer than the air in the house, so I left those doors open for a while to let that air move inside. Later in the year when too much heat becomes a problem, we will keep those connecting doors closed.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:16pm No the oil boiler was in the house which is pretty standard.
Used to be, but there are now so many restrictions that external boilers are becoming common for the last couple of years they're permitted: it's currently proposed that they won't normally be permitted after 2026.
The installer moved the fan box near the house to remedy the situation but that didnt do anything. She relys on her woodburner now, but even with that the heating is still inadequate.
Well, woodburners are often only 5kW and lots of that goes straight up the chimney. I'm surprised the external unit being moved nearer the house didn't make any measurable difference. Sounds like something else may be wrong. Might be the radiators as you suspect (they'll make the system sluggish and slow to respond) but could be something else.

I think it's worth keeping a sense of perspective, though: botched heat pump installation = cold home that can be corrected, but botched gas burner installation = no home, all dead.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 6:12pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:33pm
Biospace wrote: If all heat pumps were extracting heat from the air, I suppose the gradual heating of our atmosphere would be reduced - but then I remembered all of those pumping heat into the air while working as 'air conditioning'.
Not at all - they heat the atmosphere... in the same way that fridge with it's door open heats a kitchen.
I was considering the overall effect rather than the isolated one, in assuming that a heat pump would be replacing a fossil fuel heating system and that eventually, renewable energy will be their main source of power. :idea:
Doesn't matter - they are heat pumps they don't magic that efficiency from anywhere, they move heat from outside the house to inside the house, where it then leaks to outside again - so that phase (pun intended) of their operation has zero effect.
In doing so however, they use some energy which is released as heat.

You're right that the reduction in fossil fuels will contribute greatly - but that's not a heat pump "magic power"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 7:22pm
Biospace wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 6:12pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:33pm
Not at all - they heat the atmosphere... in the same way that fridge with it's door open heats a kitchen.
I was considering the overall effect rather than the isolated one, in assuming that a heat pump would be replacing a fossil fuel heating system and that eventually, renewable energy will be their main source of power. :idea:
Doesn't matter - they are heat pumps they don't magic that efficiency from anywhere, they move heat from outside the house to inside the house, where it then leaks to outside again - so that phase (pun intended) of their operation has zero effect.
In doing so however, they use some energy which is released as heat.

You're right that the reduction in fossil fuels will contribute greatly - but that's not a heat pump "magic power"

Yes, I tried to help you see I do understand this - the point being that running a heat pump will help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Which only serves to remind me that no matter how efficient these products are, it makes a lot of sense to use the energy from the Sun a little more directly.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 8:47pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 7:22pm
Biospace wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 6:12pm
I was considering the overall effect rather than the isolated one, in assuming that a heat pump would be replacing a fossil fuel heating system and that eventually, renewable energy will be their main source of power. :idea:
Doesn't matter - they are heat pumps they don't magic that efficiency from anywhere, they move heat from outside the house to inside the house, where it then leaks to outside again - so that phase (pun intended) of their operation has zero effect.
In doing so however, they use some energy which is released as heat.

You're right that the reduction in fossil fuels will contribute greatly - but that's not a heat pump "magic power"

Yes, I tried to help you see I do understand this - the point being that running a heat pump will help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Which only serves to remind me that no matter how efficient these products are, it makes a lot of sense to use the energy from the Sun a little more directly.
It *already* helps, and that contribution will increase as the grid evolves.

There are people who genuinely believe that heat pumps somehow permanently remove heat from the atmosphere - I tend to slam the door on such suggestions...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pete75 »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 4:52pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:41pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 3:16pm No the oil boiler was in the house which is pretty standard. The installer moved the fan box near the house to remedy the situation but that didnt do anything. She relys on her woodburner now, but even with that the heating is still inadequate.

Al
She could have had a split heat pump (at which point the location of the evaporator is much less relevant - within reason of course).

The example isn't a reason why heat pumps don't/won't/can't work - it's an example of someone installing for aesthetics over heat, and then complaining that it looks better than it heats.
No it wasnt. Shes an artist not a plumber or heating technician. She trusted the installer who shouldnt have gone along with the existing rads. The whole point which you keep choosing not to understand is that heat pumps work but many of the people installing them get it wrong! A bunch of incompetents...

Al
Yes, the UK has only about a third of the trained engineers and installers needed to meet demand. In other words, heat pumps are a golden opportunity for cowboy installers. Many of the people posting here who say they have good systems also seem to have a fair amount of knowledge about them. The two are obviously related. The average home owner doesn't have much knowledge of the systems (why should they), so are an easy target for heat pump conmen.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:43pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 12:26pm I dont blame the technology! I didnt say that at all.

The problem with heat pumps is probably plumbers who either dont know how to calculate heat loads and radiator sizes that choose inadequate kit. And, its made harder by the fact that our housing stock is designed for fossil fuel heating systems. Walk into any show home with gas and note the postage stamp sized radiators.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-out.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... co-decade/

https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-sourc ... he-answer/

Al
So, not daily, and only in the right wing press, owned by people who are prominent in climate change denial circles. The blog is clearly written by someone who doesn't understand thermodynamics ("latent heat from the air"!).

I do agree there are significant problems associated with retrofitting heat pumps, but it would be good to have a rational discourse rather than one mediated by Mail headlines or those pushed by the Barclay brothers.

And a reminder that ultimately, we don't have a choice; fossil fuels are finite and climate change is real. So it would be better to work out how to move these technologies forward rather than pretend we can all burn gas forever.
You missed this one AL linked .
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ns-unspent

I don't think this is right wing; I know Al posted 3 others that were but I like to be fair
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 5:40pm I have no idea. When she asked me about it I asked whether the installer had replaced the radiators. She said he hadnt and I said thats the problem...

Al
I think you're old enough to remember all the 'cowboys' that set up as double glazing installers back in the 70's.
There were some really bad installations and a lot of unnecessary damage to brickwork.
A house on our street partially collapsed as the installer had not taken into account that the old wooden bay window was supporting the upstairs one.

What has this got to do with heat pump installation? There is always a group of people who see the latest trend as a way of making money even if they don't have the required knowledge and skills.
Should installers be required to sit an exam?
ANTONISH
Posts: 2967
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by ANTONISH »

I note that Bosch have produced an ASHP with a propane refrigerant which has much higher efficiency than the existing ASHP.
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