Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Possibly... how far do you go though?
Manual windows, no central locking?

I'm certainly not looking to lose ABS, despite the fact that I can't remember the last time I've had it kick in...
Inertial reel seatbelts?
Crumple zones?

The question is how much does all of that save, I don't even know if the supply chain still exists for half the parts - because if it doesn't then it would be an increase in cost.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Vorpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Vorpal »

For many things, automation allows optimisation. Certainly, if I had a new heating system put in, I would want it as automated as possible, so that
1) appropriate comfort level is maintained for occupied day, night, and unoccupied states
2) the least possible energy is used to maintain the comfort level

Regarding automatic systems in cars, mine is a quite basic 2005 model, so we have ABS, electric windows, and electronic control of many functions, but no communication with devices, automatic dipping of high beams, automatic wipers, or anything like that.

I still anticipate other vehicles & dip early 8)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

Yes, automation can bring many benefits, a recent-ish one with home heating being systems analysing weather forecasts and adjusting output in advance, especially important with heat storage in floors or other mass.

But I'm surprised that cyclists would see automated windscreen wiper operation as so important, I'd place a road ice warning system or fast and close approaching from behind vehicle warning on my bicycle as more necessary.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Vorpal wrote: 12 May 2023, 1:19pm I still anticipate other vehicles & dip early 8)
I tend to override the automated system to do so... but the benefit is really there for *other* drivers (as in, not the one behind the wheel). Because it only takes one dozy wotsit to completely mess up any vision you had, and therefore substantially reduce your max speed - and this can (and does) prevent that happening.

Interestingly some of the high end headlights aren't fully dipping any more, they just dip the bit of the main beam which is pointing towards another vehicle... That's verging on the insane, and is *far* better than you can do manually - you retain the additional vision from full beam headlights whilst still not dazzling oncoming traffic. At least that's the theory - I've not actually been able to test any such system.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 May 2023, 2:42pm Interestingly some of the high end headlights aren't fully dipping any more, they just dip the bit of the main beam which is pointing towards another vehicle... That's verging on the insane, and is *far* better than you can do manually - you retain the additional vision from full beam headlights whilst still not dazzling oncoming traffic. At least that's the theory - I've not actually been able to test any such system.
I wonder, does it dip the bit where a walker or rider is, or are only other motorists worthy?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I had the same thought - My guess is that a front light on a cyclist would be sufficient, but mere pedestrians...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 May 2023, 2:42pm Interestingly some of the high end headlights aren't fully dipping any more, they just dip the bit of the main beam which is pointing towards another vehicle... That's verging on the insane, and is *far* better than you can do manually - you retain the additional vision from full beam headlights whilst still not dazzling oncoming traffic. At least that's the theory - I've not actually been able to test any such system.
Yes, these are as amazing as they sound in operation. Should one be damaged and need replacing, I hear they're around £1000 a side. :shock:

But, it's a little like driving with a team of a dozen people adjusting their searchlights to illuminate the road ahead as best as possible, even using the satnav to illuminate round a corner before the steering is turned. Quite remarkable to see them remain on 'full beam' with oncoming vehicles without dazzling them - including bicycles. A little disconcerting at first on a winding road as they constantly change their aim and apparent focal length, but very effective.

However for me, not much beats large reflectors and good quality filament bulbs, correctly adjusted.
Jdsk
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jdsk »

"Heat pumps: a user survey" (in the UK):
https://www.nesta.org.uk/report/heat-pu ... er-survey/

Guardian coverage:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ith-system
includes:

Screenshot 2023-05-30 at 10.40.12.png

Jonathan
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simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by simonineaston »

Am keeping my peepers peeled to see the first one pop up on the balconies of the nearby apartments...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 30 May 2023, 10:42am "Heat pumps: a user survey" (in the UK):
This should be fairly reassuring for those who have been led to believe that heat pumps are unsuitable in British homes, especially given over a quarter of the respondents' installations were 5 years old or more.

The greatest dissatisfaction was with running costs although it's possible recent energy price rises had an effect on this. Is it correct to suggest they need to running at over 3:1 efficiency for costs to be on a par with gas?

The most interesting chart was the one comparing satisfaction with property age - those most satisfied had houses built before 1900. I wonder if other more personal factors were coming in to play here, or that the build quality and mass of material in older houses plays a greater part in living comfort than most realise? Possibly both.

HP satisf by property age.png
axel_knutt
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by axel_knutt »

Vorpal wrote: 12 May 2023, 1:19pmCertainly, if I had a new heating system put in, I would want it as automated as possible, so that
1) appropriate comfort level is maintained for occupied day, night, and unoccupied states
I don't find that an "appropriate comfort level" is something that can be quantified in terms of degrees that can be set on a thermostat, the temperature that I find comfortable will vary by several degrees depending on what I've been doing over the previous 24 hours or more. A temperature that's comfortable if I've been indoors all day won't be anything like comfortable if I've been out in the freezing cold for hours. The same goes for clothing, and bedclothes, if I were to get cold today I might need to be warmer for the next 24 hours or more even after I'm back in a normal environment.

Over-automated systems are a PITA. For example if I turn my roomstat up now, it will revert to the programmed temperature at the next time period, so if I want it to stay put until further notice I have to re-program the whole week, and then again when I want it put back. On the other hand if I just turn the knob and forget I've done it, next Tuesday the temperature will go back up whether I want it to or not.

My old system was so simple: no roomstat at all, just a timer & radstats, and if you felt chilly you just turned the radstat up a bit until you're warm enough, then back down again. Having a roomstat when there's already a radstat in each room is barking mad: it keeps shutting off the boiler based on the temperature in just one room, when the radstats in other rooms aren't necessarily satisfied.

The net result is that my energy-saving condensing boiler isn't saving any energy at all, because I have to turn up the roomstat higher than I really want it just to stop it from sabotaging the heat supply to the other rooms.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

axel_knutt wrote: 30 May 2023, 3:21pm I don't find that an "appropriate comfort level" is something that can be quantified...
It certainly cannot.

Having lived in fairly ancient houses heated by me having to do something (combination of woodstoves and going out to a greenhouse to light an ex-army water heater feeding a heat store tank/buffer and radiators) it came as a bit of a shock to move into a highly insulated modern place where the underfloor heating was linked to the internet and controllable in every possible way to provide the "perfect internal climate".

Not having a wood stove was a shock, as was the lack of temperature differential through the house. Even the upstairs was the same temperature, without any heating being on upstairs. There was a lovely 2 or 3 hours in really cold weather when the house had cooled enough to feel slightly fresh and the 35C water could be felt slowly warming the floor slab, before everything returned to "perfect". This reminded me of British cars which would allow heat to the feet and fresh air through vents to the face, apparently more desirable in cooler climates with damp air.

The internet forecasting created its own problems. Not only could it not forecast localised weather, it also made a very poor job of forecasting radiation and took no account of oven use. And sometimes the regional forecast was wrong. Under the right conditions it could work well, typically a warm front coming through with turbulent air and thick cloud. Cold fronts were usually over compensated for, especially so when clear winter skies resulted in loads of passive solar heating.

So I took away the boiler's addiction to thermostats (air and floor throughout the house) and the internet and now simply switch it on or off. I quickly learned to judge the storage capacity (and lag) of the floor, the likely amount of sun (and at what time), the effect of rain and wind and local weather conditions. Whether or not the oven is going to be used is considered, or it can be used for dinner if a little more heat if needed and not least the level of our physical activity.

Clearly a well insulated property with a massive concrete slab used as the heating is more of an art to maintain at a comfortable temperature than a leaky building with a large boiler, but it's the way we're headed. I can't help but feel there will be a market for an attractive product which has a radiating surface and simulates the effects of a stove.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

axel_knutt wrote: 30 May 2023, 3:21pm Over-automated systems are a PITA. For example if I turn my roomstat up now, it will revert to the programmed temperature at the next time period, so if I want it to stay put until further notice I have to re-program the whole week, and then again when I want it put back. On the other hand if I just turn the knob and forget I've done it, next Tuesday the temperature will go back up whether I want it to or not.
That sounds under-automated to me, in that there is only one control, so no difference between a permanent turn-up and a temporary boost.
My old system was so simple: no roomstat at all, just a timer & radstats, and if you felt chilly you just turned the radstat up a bit until you're warm enough, then back down again. Having a roomstat when there's already a radstat in each room is barking mad: it keeps shutting off the boiler based on the temperature in just one room, when the radstats in other rooms aren't necessarily satisfied.
Again, that sounds under-automated, with the roomstat being used as an on-off switch for the boiler, instead of the controller evaluating the roomstat, radstats and any pipe-stats to decide if the boiler needs to be on or off.

A timer instead of a modern controller would also be rubbish, potentially running the boiler when nothing wants the heat, which will be very inefficient.
The net result is that my energy-saving condensing boiler isn't saving any energy at all, because I have to turn up the roomstat higher than I really want it just to stop it from sabotaging the heat supply to the other rooms.
Don't worry about the "condensing" feature of your boiler: your controls sound so simplistic that I bet they don't lower the boiler output temperature enough to condense anyway.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

Biospace wrote: 30 May 2023, 2:31pm The greatest dissatisfaction was with running costs although it's possible recent energy price rises had an effect on this. Is it correct to suggest they need to running at over 3:1 efficiency for costs to be on a par with gas?
As a rough approximation, yes. A heat pump at 300% efficiency will cost a similar amount to run as a gas boiler running at about 75% efficiency, which is surprisingly common, especially with people who are relaxed about getting theirs serviced due to fear of expensive repairs or condemnation. I've seen some people reporting their gas boilers achieving as low as 40% efficiency when they've actually tested them.

The big improvement will be when electricity price is no longer tied to gas prices.
The most interesting chart was the one comparing satisfaction with property age - those most satisfied had houses built before 1900. I wonder if other more personal factors were coming in to play here, or that the build quality and mass of material in older houses plays a greater part in living comfort than most realise? Possibly both.
Build quality of lots of Victorian and Edwardian houses isn't great: single-skinned, high ceilings, and so on. I suspect part of the reason why older householders were happier may be that the government grant schemes encouraged a lot of long-overdue insulation upgrades alongside changing to heat pumps; and that they're more able to switch to underfloor heating, unlike more modern houses with level floors of poured concrete.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

mjr wrote: 30 May 2023, 5:35pm
axel_knutt wrote: 30 May 2023, 3:21pm Over-automated systems are a PITA. For example if I turn my roomstat up now
That sounds under-automated to me...

Don't worry about the "condensing" feature of your boiler: your controls sound so simplistic that I bet they don't lower the boiler output temperature enough to condense anyway.

Whether or not that system is under or over 'automated' in your opinion is immaterial, the point being made was that removal of human control for home heating doesn't necessarily, automatically improve matters.

A well insulated house heated by a large thermal mass has a lag of hours in adjusting the radiation, conduction and convection to maintain the temperature.

So if on a cold February day there's a lot of sun shining through windows the temperature may rise considerably over what is comfortable, especially if the floor has just finished its heating cycle, the same if an oven is used much. If a door is open for a long time, especially on a breezy cold day, the temperature loss may not be recovered if the floor is well through it cooling cycle, and could take hours for the floor to reheat and rewarm the house.

A good 'automated' system needs to compute far more than the best ones do at the moment if both temperatures are to be optimised and heating efficiency can make best use of high levels of insulation and heated thermal mass.

With heat pumps linked to heat stores, it's possible both underfloor (for most of the heating) and radiative heating (for short boosts to comfort) can be used, although direct electrical energy would be more space efficient for 'instant' heat.
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