Heat in the home

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
37%
18-20
23
38%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 60

Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Biospace wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 9:53pm As someone who now lives with UFH for 99% of our 'set fire to it' space heating, it's a shock coming from an old house which had its slightly unconventional heating systems installed and designed by me - anyone remember my description of the Army M67 in the greenhouse feeding radiators or the best part of a tonne of bricks surrounding the metal woodburner to capture and slowly release otherwise lost radiation?

I miss the intense, bone-warming radiation of the woodstove which would cure anything this side of frostbite within minutes (but lack of it makes those first hot rays of sunshine in April even more precious), of the total control of cooking on wood (I hate the induction hob and miss preparing kindling from a variety of wood all with different qualities), the feeling of a house coming up to temperature from roaring flames and the freshness and cleanliness of the air with draughts.

Houses used to rely on the mass of the structure for insulation, now we have plastic insulation with concrete floors and stone worktops (yuck) forming the heat storage - which can make things feel very cold even when internal temperatures are quite reasonable. In prolonged summer heat (which is what the global warmists promise us more and more of) many modern builds become uncomfortable days before older properties.

Someday I will build or modify a house to how I'd really like it, perhaps a hefty wooden frame with mud and straw infill for walls and the heat mass storage around a central fire, probably a form of rocket mass heater, with solar heating optimised for when the sun is at a low angle. There'll be no plastic liner to prevent 'breathing', in a mild, breezy climate we don't need such extreme measures - mould is more dangerous than a few cooler corners.
You're creating a false dichotomy there.

Insulation and a properly specified and constructed wall profile is the best way to control indoor temperature, humidity and air quality.

There is next to nothing that can be said positively about the insulative qualities of older buildings. You can't equate mass of structure to insulation.

In an ideal world, you want a fairly thick wall profile, with ample insulation and a build up of moisture permeable materials that encourage moisture transition from indoors to ourdoors. Thermal mass within the insulated envelop is great, and will help to stabilise temperatures a bit. You also want some sort of hygroscopic material within the building to regulate humidity. Lime or clay plaster, or exposed wood.

To hark back to traditional building techniques as a solution for modern housing is like looking at the Ford Model T for modern transport.

The UK may well have a mild climate, but it's getting increasingly and uncomfortably hot in summer, and winter storms strip heat from houses incredibly quickly.

The UK just needs to up the game massively on new house building. Ditch the big builders (who have the councils and the government in their pockets) and start to focus on building houses that people actually want to live in, rather than houses that people have no choice but to settle for.
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Cugel
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Cugel »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 7:43pm
The UK just needs to up the game massively on new house building. Ditch the big builders (who have the councils and the government in their pockets) and start to focus on building houses that people actually want to live in, rather than houses that people have no choice but to settle for.
The big builders are certainly responsible for some very ticky-tacky houses and ought to be had-up for fraud, since those houses are not really fit to live in; and becoming less fit with each year of extra weather from climate change. Substandard brick work, plastering, window fitting and everything else, not to mention building on flood plains, failing to provide adequate support facilities such as local shops and schools, etcetera, etcetera. However ......

In my experience of those who are either looking for a first house to buy or moving house, most pay little attention to anything other than the "look" of a house. Something that's fashionable seems to be preferred to something that functions as a place to live in comfortably, conveniently and frugally. Many still assume that a fashionable house is some kind of investment, which they can live in for a year or three then sell for a big profit. They don't seem to get the idea of a home.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

Living in a house that is now over 120 years old I would love to have all the insulation and modern heat saving construction but we don't.
The house has some charm when viewed from outside, in fact it was one thing that decided our purchase. It was going to be my second home and I never gave much thought to living in it full time. We've done what we can to improve it but it's still not as energy efficient as a modern house. I like the look of old houses but would love to see them through the window of a modern house.
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 7:43pm You're creating a false dichotomy there.
Would you explain where this false dichotomy lies in what I said, please?
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 610
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Biospace wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 12:55pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 7:43pm You're creating a false dichotomy there.
Would you explain where this false dichotomy lies in what I said, please?
Well, there are a couple.

Firstly, that the pursuit of high u-values creates an environment conducive to mould growth. The false dichotomy being that you either choose to be warm or to have mould

The second is the implication that there is something positive or superior about traditional structures, and that their mass made up for their lack of thermal performance. The false dichotomy being that you can either choose solidity or insulation.

I'm not trying to pick an argument in any way shape or form, but I've lived in enough old, substantial houses to know better. A large percentage of the UK housing stock just needs to be demolished and rebuilt. The reconstruction cost is much lower (even over a fairly short timescale) than the cost of heating them.

As an example, we lived in three small farmhouses over a 14 year period. 2 in Central Scotland, one in Devon. Average size 115 square metres, 3 bedrooms, 2 detached, one link attached.

Over that time period, 95% of all of our heating was from wood. We burned, on average, around 30 cubic metres per year to stay reasonably warm. That's 420 cubic metres (split) which equates to a little over 200t of fresh felled timber. You can build quite a few passive standard houses from that volume of timber, and then never have to heat them again.

And with all those houses, despite the huge heat input, we still had issues with mould in places where we lacked air flow. My wife (being an architect) is well versed in sustainable construction, and we have two good friends, one of whom is a thermographer (thermal imaging buildings) and the other a mechanical engineer specialising in indoor air quality. These old buildings are largely unfixable.

Contrast our above experience with our house in Sweden. Despite being 66 years old, it uses (in real terms) 10 times less energy to heat it per square metre.

The UK needs to up it's game and recognise it's part of a changing climate. I also believe that part of the reason that houses continued to be so badly built through the 20th century was North Sea gas. When energy is cheap, why insulate?

It's a different world we live in now.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Jon, I dont hold out much hope for new houses that people actually want to live in. Over the last 6 months, purely for entertainment, we have visited a number of local show homes. With different facades, many of them are quite attractive, the products of the big builders ,all very similar. Small rooms, bland operating theatre type kitchens, few if any storage spaces and poky overlooked gardens. Our conclusion is that this is what people want. Highly insulated maintenance free boxes with little character.
To say that all these places are erected on flood plains with no facilities is untrue of around here. https://orchard-grove.com/ . This development will have the lot including cycle tracks and pedestrian walkways as well as open spaces.
Change takes place in response to demand and is always behind the curve.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

You do seem to have completely misread and jumped to (wrong) conclusions, I wrote neither that better insulation makes for more likelihood of mould, nor that there is a choice between mass or insulation was written or implied.

Jon in Sweden wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 2:37pm I'm not trying to pick an argument in any way shape or form, but I've lived in enough old, substantial houses to know better. A large percentage of the UK housing stock just needs to be demolished and rebuilt. The reconstruction cost is much lower (even over a fairly short timescale) than the cost of heating them.
...
These old buildings are largely unfixable.
Our last house was 300 years old with 30 inch+ 'solid' stone walls, it was dry, in good (very nearly original) condition and didn't eat through heating fuel. Another property we lived in was 170yo and a challenge to keep warm.

"As an interesting mind-experiment, what you're suggesting in fact shows up the whole obsolete myth of U-value thinking - which ignores the overwhelming effects of both thermal massiveness, and of the non-steady-state that is real life. Which is why conventional insulants give actual heat retention results, over a period, as poor as 40% of what plain U-value calcs would expect; and why old solid buildings with pathetic calc's U-values often perform well; and why multifoil insulation works so well, because it understands and exploits the non-steady-state."

https://www.greenbuilding.co.uk/GBF_For ... tone-walls

There are many, many properties from recent years which should be knocked down because of terrible build quality and plenty of older ones, built using high quality materials and construction which should not. Damp ingress renders an otherwise good property extremely energy-wasteful. This newspaper article is relevant, https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... g-the-cold
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

francovendee wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 8:11am Living in a house that is now over 120 years old I would love to have all the insulation and modern heat saving construction but we don't.
The house has some charm when viewed from outside, in fact it was one thing that decided our purchase. It was going to be my second home and I never gave much thought to living in it full time. We've done what we can to improve it but it's still not as energy efficient as a modern house. I like the look of old houses but would love to see them through the window of a modern house.
Franco, like you my home has to have a bit of character, I couldnt live in a featureless box. On and off during my apprenticeship I lived in a beautiful Arts and Crafts house. Before WWII this was the country residence of the German Ambassador, appropriated by the Ministry of Aviation. It was a joy. Even my modest house in South Oxfordshire that I lived in for 44 years was attractive with nice dormers and an interesting room layout and garden. When my second wife and I saw this old pile that hadnt been treated kindly we had to have it. Putting its interior back to the splendour it once had has been very satisfying and it continues to reward us with much pleasure. We had no idea that heating costs would treble but that doesnt detract from the pleasure of living here. After 18 months of hard work the interior is getting up to scratch and we are looking forward to doing more work in the gardens in the spring including building a garden room/greenhouse against a wall in place of the unwanted hot tub.
My Mrs watches Grand Designs which seems to feature lots of utterly ghastly flat roofed eco boxes...ugh! Fortunately she also avidly watches period dramas which feature wonderful interiors which she drools over. We are aware our heating bill is pretty steep but that doesnt really bother us. We have just had a couple of cold and therefore expensive months but nothing as bad as your -10.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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853
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by 853 »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 2:37pm
The UK needs to up it's game and recognise it's part of a changing climate. I also believe that part of the reason that houses continued to be so badly built through the 20th century was North Sea gas. When energy is cheap, why insulate?

It's a different world we live in now.
As I mentioned, on the 14th of December last year, in 2022 the building regs for minimum levels of wall and floor insulation rose by 50 percent, with even more stringent requirements expected in 2025. Yes, minimum insulation requirements in the UK were a bit of a joke, but finally this has been addressed and taken seriously. Now all we need to do is knock down the older house and re-build them to the new standards :)

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simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by simonineaston »

I was in Sweden on Friday. It was cold. But those little open sandwiches - they're so cute! Roast beef, or ham, or prawns or smoked salmon, or cheese etc etc. I could eat them all day...
nomnomnom
nomnomnom
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
francovendee
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 2:37pm
Biospace wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 12:55pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 7:43pm You're creating a false dichotomy there.
Would you explain where this false dichotomy lies in what I said, please?

Over that time period, 95% of all of our heating was from wood. We burned, on average, around 30 cubic metres per year to stay reasonably warm. That's 420 cubic metres (split) which equates to a little over 200t of fresh felled timber. You can build quite a few passive standard houses from that volume of timber, and then never have to heat them again.


.
That's a lot of wood to burn. Are you talking about a big house and water heating?
I use about 10 cu on average, plenty warm enough and no mould but we do have draughts.

There is a tussle between knocking down or refurbishing/re-purposing old buildings. The energy used to clear a site and rebuild would take many years to offset the energy used in older houses.
Here, in my part of France, houses built more recently are of a poor design. Detached houses with a single story and rooms with three outside walls and a roof isn't a good start. They have offset this by increasing the thickness of insulation.

If I had the funds I'd pull this old house down and build an energy efficient house. I don't and like many others I make the best of what I have.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

francovendee wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 8:32am
Jon in Sweden wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 2:37pm
Biospace wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 12:55pm

Would you explain where this false dichotomy lies in what I said, please?

Over that time period, 95% of all of our heating was from wood. We burned, on average, around 30 cubic metres per year to stay reasonably warm. That's 420 cubic metres (split) which equates to a little over 200t of fresh felled timber. You can build quite a few passive standard houses from that volume of timber, and then never have to heat them again.


.
That's a lot of wood to burn. Are you talking about a big house and water heating?
I use about 10 cu on average, plenty warm enough and no mould but we do have draughts.

There is a tussle between knocking down or refurbishing/re-purposing old buildings. The energy used to clear a site and rebuild would take many years to offset the energy used in older houses.
Here, in my part of France, houses built more recently are of a poor design. Detached houses with a single story and rooms with three outside walls and a roof isn't a good start. They have offset this by increasing the thickness of insulation.

If I had the funds I'd pull this old house down and build an energy efficient house. I don't and like many others I make the best of what I have.
My Dad lives in central southern France, so I understand what the housing is like there. He mainly heats with wood too, but uses a similar amount to you. Winters are very short though, even compared to SW England. The mould issues were mainly in Devon. Where we were in Scotland, the winters were colder and drier.

In the UK I used to run a sawmill and latterly a forestry business, so wood was never in short supply. Our stoves were only ever space heaters, and didn't heat water or radiators.

I think perhaps that people in the UK underestimate how cold winter can actually feel. Yes, the thermometer may say it's fairly mild, but by the time you factor in the wind and rain, the temperature will seem a lot lower. In one house in particular, wind driven rain at 2-3c would strip the heat like nothing else from our house.

Even though it's obviously much colder here in Sweden, we have virtually no wind and minimal rain. So maybe, the heat demand on houses actually isn't as high as the thermometer would suggest.

I certainly feel that minus 10c here is more pleasant than your average 5c with horizontal rain in Devon. You don't need as many layers, certainly.
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Cugel
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 6:05pm
francovendee wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 8:11am Living in a house that is now over 120 years old I would love to have all the insulation and modern heat saving construction but we don't.
The house has some charm when viewed from outside, in fact it was one thing that decided our purchase. It was going to be my second home and I never gave much thought to living in it full time. We've done what we can to improve it but it's still not as energy efficient as a modern house. I like the look of old houses but would love to see them through the window of a modern house.
Franco, like you my home has to have a bit of character, I couldnt live in a featureless box. On and off during my apprenticeship I lived in a beautiful Arts and Crafts house. Before WWII this was the country residence of the German Ambassador, appropriated by the Ministry of Aviation. It was a joy. Even my modest house in South Oxfordshire that I lived in for 44 years was attractive with nice dormers and an interesting room layout and garden. When my second wife and I saw this old pile that hadnt been treated kindly we had to have it. Putting its interior back to the splendour it once had has been very satisfying and it continues to reward us with much pleasure. We had no idea that heating costs would treble but that doesnt detract from the pleasure of living here. After 18 months of hard work the interior is getting up to scratch and we are looking forward to doing more work in the gardens in the spring including building a garden room/greenhouse against a wall in place of the unwanted hot tub.
My Mrs watches Grand Designs which seems to feature lots of utterly ghastly flat roofed eco boxes...ugh! Fortunately she also avidly watches period dramas which feature wonderful interiors which she drools over. We are aware our heating bill is pretty steep but that doesnt really bother us. We have just had a couple of cold and therefore expensive months but nothing as bad as your -10.

Al
I like a bit of historical re-enactment. Do you wear the clothes appropriate to the period, including the periwig and tight trews with them booty-shoes sporting large brass buckles hanging out of them? I can see you in a periwig, giving out Georgian-style advice and gossipings to the other bewigged Georgians. :-)

I must say, by the way, that I'm begining to better understand the source of many of your utterings here.

But to address your risk of freezin' in that crumbling pile of gadrooned brick & wood - have you tried a-one o' them big brass bedpans on a long fancy stick turned with lots of folderols and other rounded knobbels & enclaves along its length? Be careful shovelling the hot coals into the brass pan, mind.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
reohn2
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 6:05pm

Franco, like you my home has to have a bit of character, I couldnt live in a featureless box.........

Al
You could,it's just that you and Mrs Al can afford not to.
That's not a criticism of you and Mrs Al,many people have many dreams of the house they'd like but can't afford and so they compromise.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Surprisingly, as to the affording bit, our mini mansion cost about 75% of the price of a modern house of the same floor area so it was by no means expensive. I must admit that I dont understand why? I can only assume that the majority of folk dont want an old house because it possibly needs work and is expensive to live in and maintain?

Anyway, better than inhabiting a featureless box named after a commie rag in the middle of nowhere ..... No.......:lol:

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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