Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
9
13%
below 18
23
34%
18-20
27
40%
21-22
4
6%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
4%
 
Total votes: 68

djnotts
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by djnotts »

^ Yes. Much detail at ONS from 2021 census.

"Age of the property is the biggest single factor in energy efficiency of homes
Three-fifths of assessed homes in England and Wales have low energy efficiency ratings, but most people are not considering making any improvements

6 January 2022"

The figures for pre-1900, those without cavity walls (pre-1945) and pre-1982 (empty cavity walls) more illuminating. Mine is c.1902.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

djnotts wrote: 4 Jan 2025, 6:42pm Warmth? I read 20 deg for heat pumps? I prefer 23.
No, you can do whatever temperature you like, as long as the pump output is more than the heat loss at the target temperature. Most people optimise for 20±1, but you can do whatever. Mine is actually optimised for 21 in the lounge, mostly 20 elsewhere.

It's important not to go all false bravado when getting quotes and say you'll run the house at 18 or cooler if you won't, else the system won't be optimised and will cost more to heat the house to 21! In extreme cases, if you say design for 18 and want 24, then it may struggle to do it, but that's the same with any heating system but most don't realise it, the installers whack in bigger burners just in case and the gas subsidies hide the inefficiency problem.
Those trying to sell tend to underestimate cost and over estimate savings, yet as best I recall even their calculators show at least 25 year pay back.
That was not my experience. The difference between installing a new oil boiler and the heat pump is almost paid off in 3½ years and there's still years left on the warranty. That installer has collapsed, though, so maybe was undercharging? Didn't seem it compared to other quotes at the time. Manufacturer warranty, thankfully. The biggest nuisance has been filling Ofgem-related forms IMO. The new single payment grant seems much better than the old schemes.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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djnotts
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Heat in the home

Post by djnotts »

According to one source, no longer something about which I need worry.

"The "i" says the government is going to ditch plans to introduce a ban on new boilers from 2035. The paper says it understands the measure is being dropped, despite efforts to encourage people to switch to more environmentally friendly heat pumps instead. It says a separate scheme that will, in effect, ban boilers from being installed in new build homes will still come into force by the end of the decade......" (BBC News)

Simple costs issue. Even for the c.7m non-cavity homes at a modest £30,000 each upgrade, £210bn. Plus the cavity walls but very poorly insulated properties from mid-30s to mid-80s. Say another £100bn?

Treasury has done the numbers and said "hold on", we can't pay for it. Homeowners can't - and if they could take too much out of gdp spending power. Oh, and there are no workers to upgrade the houses and/or install heat pumps.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

£30k?
What are you installing for that?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
djnotts
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by djnotts »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 1:07pm £30k?
What are you installing for that?
For heat pump to be worthwhile, external/internal (mix) wall cladding, double glazing, some form of solid floor insulation, modern standard loft insulation. Upgrade/increase capacity of hot water piping. Guess there's lots of pre-1930s would need same.

All that would as far as I can calculate might save approx £1,000 p.a. max on fuel costs.
Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

Heat pumps are improving all the while. The not inconsiderable demand for properties which aren’t easily thermally improved will drive further development of heat pumps to suit - they’ll use a little more energy, but once electricity is mostly from renewable sources rather than fossil fuels, this matters less.

Prices should continue to fall, but clearly there’s also an extra financial burden if existing pipe work needs replacing.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

djnotts wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 2:39pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 1:07pm £30k?
What are you installing for that?
For heat pump to be worthwhile, external/internal (mix) wall cladding, double glazing, some form of solid floor insulation, modern standard loft insulation. Upgrade/increase capacity of hot water piping. Guess there's lots of pre-1930s would need same.
A heat pump would be worthwhile without all that. 350ish% efficiency would still be worth significantly more than 80-99%. The two problems with the simple rule are that bigger heat pumps cost more to buy (so could easily be beyond what many people could invest) and mains fossil gas is currently subsidised while electricity has "green levies" piled on it.

As well as the environmental/moral reasons to improve insulation, it helps reduce the size of heat pump needed, lowering the up-front investment as well as the running costs.

The subsidies and levies are a political matter, though.
All that would as far as I can calculate might save approx £1,000 p.a. max on fuel costs.
At current figures, perhaps. The gas subsidies and renewable electricity "green levies" will end, as surely as the diesel incentives did. The only question is when.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

djnotts wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 2:39pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 1:07pm £30k?
What are you installing for that?
For heat pump to be worthwhile, external/internal (mix) wall cladding, double glazing, some form of solid floor insulation, modern standard loft insulation. Upgrade/increase capacity of hot water piping. Guess there's lots of pre-1930s would need same.

All that would as far as I can calculate might save approx £1,000 p.a. max on fuel costs.

That's not actually how physics works.

You don't *need* that to make a heat pump worthwhile. It does reduce the heat load of the building, but whatever the heat load is then it's significantly better to use a heat pump to supply that load than it is to burn stuff.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
rjb
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by rjb »

The lack of wind has pushed the wholesale price of electricity up to over £6 a unit (kwhr). Hang on to your hats as the peak demand approaches the evening peak. Keep your torch handy.
"Power grid operator scrambles to avert blackout risk | Money News | Sky News" https://news.sky.com/story/power-grid-o ... t-13285474
Snap shot just before 2pm
Screenshot_2025-01-08-13-55-09-161.jpeg
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Meh - they're doing what they do... it's just that it's suddenly newsworthy because clicks.

They aren't scrambling, any more than you're scrambling when you get up and make porridge because you're hungry in the morning.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 5:22pm
djnotts wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 2:39pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 6 Jan 2025, 1:07pm £30k?
What are you installing for that?
For heat pump to be worthwhile, external/internal (mix) wall cladding, double glazing, some form of solid floor insulation, modern standard loft insulation. Upgrade/increase capacity of hot water piping. Guess there's lots of pre-1930s would need same.

All that would as far as I can calculate might save approx £1,000 p.a. max on fuel costs.

That's not actually how physics works.

You don't *need* that to make a heat pump worthwhile. It does reduce the heat load of the building, but whatever the heat load is then it's significantly better to use a heat pump to supply that load than it is to burn stuff.
We know many homes in Nordic countries use heat pumps successfully in low temperatures, leading many to question why there are people in Britain questioning their suitability. What is often left out is that unlike homes in cold climates, British homes have been built to very low thermal efficiency standards, because of cheap and plentiful coal then gas - and our generally mild, damp climate.

While more roofspace insulation may be added and better windows fitted, if the walls are leaking a lot of heat in a home designed for radiant heating, the costs and complexities of insulating well enough to make convection heating by heat pump suitable may be very high.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Again - the heat load is the important thing.

You might need to run relatively inefficiently to get undersized radiators to function, but heat pumps are perfectly capable of feeding systems water at the same sort of temperatures as a boiler.
They'll be hideously inefficient when compared with other heat pumps, but they'll still beat out a boiler by a very wide margin.

Microbore, plastic pushfit plumbing into undersized emitters, in a house that's leaky and single skinned....
None of that actually stops a heat pump from working, it just prevents maximum efficiency, because it requires more pump power and a higher flow temperature.

Is it best to have a nicely insulated house? Of course, but that's not because heat pumps can't cope otherwise, but because whatever your heat source it will be cheaper if you have a well insulated house.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

I agree everything you mention is perfectly possible, but it's the cost which means tens of thousands of people are living in fear.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The cost of *not* doing it is far higher.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
djnotts
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Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Heat in the home

Post by djnotts »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Jan 2025, 3:15pm The cost of *not* doing it is far higher.
But not for me in my lifetime.
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