Heat in the home

[mjr]

One cold snap in 1997 I recorded the temp and took gas and elec readings one night and heated the lounge to 20 degrees using the gas fire.

Gas fire? That might be only one step up from piping car exhaust fumes into the house!
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/01/ ... dy-reveals

Why do occasional wood burner exhausts out the chimney get all the abuse, while routine gas exhausts into the living space for heating and cooking go uncommented?

[PedallingSquares]

Lots of folk wear leisure clothing indoors, some wear it all the time. Its up to us what we wear. If someone chooses to wear summer clothing indoors and whack the heating up thats up to them. I put the details of what I discovered on here as an act of kindness for some people who might be glad of it because like many they are struggling with heating costs.
If you dont like it PS....tough. you are totally free to advise everyone to do what you do. Everyone is free to choose.
Al

You are again contradicting your earlier posts.You are not free to choose.
Thermal clothing is not leisurewear , the clue is in the name.
If someone has to wear thermal clothing indoors because they can't afford the heating bills then they are not free to choose at all.
Now if you are wearing thermal clothing indoors because you can afford the heating but are too tight to pay then that is your choice.
So which is it?
From your previous posts it seems like you have bought a certain type of property because of looks/style but can't, or won't pay for the necessary improvements to make it comfortable.So you don't choose to wear thermals inside you have to because all your measures to keep the house relatively warm aren't working.
It really doesn't matter whether I like it or not as I can afford to 'whack' up my heating(?????) and sit in 'Summer' clothing.

[simonineaston]

I can see the benefit of a base level of heating provided in a block. Some sort of built-in use of energy that would otherwise go to waste, that ensures that the rooms don't fall to below, say 17 degrees, it being left to the individual households whether to spend on raising the temp in their rooms to a higher level.
Funnily enough, that's sort of what happens here, although I was idley imagining the other day, what the block (of around 150 apartments) would be like if for some reason or another I was the only inhabitant. I assume that internal temp would gradually fall, as the empty block slowly equilibrated with its winter surroundings - and then presumably rise again in summer.

[Biospace]

Lots of folk wear leisure clothing indoors, some wear it all the time. Its up to us what we wear. If someone chooses to wear summer clothing indoors and whack the heating up thats up to them. I put the details of what I discovered on here as an act of kindness for some people who might be glad of it because like many they are struggling with heating costs.
If you dont like it PS....tough. you are totally free to advise everyone to do what you do. Everyone is free to choose.
Al

You are again contradicting your earlier posts.You are not free to choose.

From your previous posts it seems like you have bought a certain type of property because of looks/style but can't, or won't pay for the necessary improvements to make it comfortable.

It really doesn't matter whether I like it or not as I can afford to 'whack' up my heating(?????) and sit in 'Summer' clothing.

So those who suggest insulating the person rather than heating the air in a house to the point of gross inefficiency are ridiculed - then accused of either poverty or buying a house because of its appearance alone. al_yrpal is an engineer, no less. Modern Britain never ceases to amaze.

Why do occasional wood burner exhausts out the chimney get all the abuse, while routine gas exhausts into the living space for heating and cooking go uncommented?

If you were trapped in a huge sealed warehouse with plants and trees to help balance your exhaled carbon dioxide (and no outside supply of replacement air) inside of which is a small cabin in which to sleep and keep warm, would you keep warm in winter by cutting down trees and burning them or by using a supply of gas while working out how to keep warm more sustainably?

Because the hard facts are that a domestic wood burning stove is many orders worse than heating by gas, especially (but not only) with respect to particulate matter. And also, possibly, because a large proportion of woodstoves are supplementary (and a lifestyle/fashion accessory) to a much less hazardous form of heating - all too often, sucking heat from a centrally heated home up the flue pipe.

PM levels in a typical English cold snap soar in urban areas as people light up their stoves into stagnant atmospheric conditions. People with breathing difficulties feel the effects, hospital admissions rise. I hear "save the NHS" ringing in my head - I wonder if this applies only to some avoidable factors?

In addition to the effects on health (especially children's) from this sort of pollution, in recent years scientists have observed how the planet's temperature control mechanisms are affected by the deposition of man made 'soot' particles on polar snow and ice.

[PedallingSquares]

So those who suggest insulating the person rather than heating the air in a house to the point of gross inefficiency are ridiculed - then accused of either poverty or buying a house because of its appearance alone. al_yrpal is an engineer, no less. Modern Britain never ceases to amaze.

Merely rehashing what he has said himself.Bodging/taping stuff to widows/damp coursing etc He has also stated he bought a 300 year old house as he wanted a certain style in a certain area

Heating the air in a house to the point of gross inefficiency is subject to opinion.IMO it not grossly inefficient if I'm enjoying a nice, warm, cosy, comfortable house that is a constant temperature throughout Autumn/Winter

You are correct...Modern Britain never ceases to amaze

[Biospace]

Heating the air in a house to the point of gross inefficiency is subject to opinion.IMO it not grossly inefficient if I'm enjoying a nice, warm, cosy, comfortable house that is a constant temperature throughout Autumn/Winter

It depends on the property's thermal performance. If your house approaches PassivHaus standards then there won't be so many inefficiences at play with air temperatures around 23-24C, even when it's very cold outside.

Engineers generally hate wasted energy and spend time minimising losses, tailoring things to local conditions. I rather like older, large houses as they aren't a constant temperature throughout and can be heated with as little energy typically used for modern ones if you use radiant heat to heat the rooms you use - rather than maintaining an entire house at 20C+.

Since we're warming and not cooling according to those in the know, a property which remains cool in some rooms through periods of intense heat came into its own last summer (not us - we moved from near off grid C18th house into a modern one four years ago). Yes, you could reverse the heat pump/use air conditioning in a modern, highly insulated house, but that would mean using energy through summer as well as winter to keep internal temperatures tolerable.

[al_yrpal]

Just to set the record straight my wife loves old houses and antiques (she used to be a dealer) and we didnt want to live in a featureless modern box when we moved from her tiny old cottage. The house was built in 1799, its grade II listed and has a lovely1/3 acre garden which is completely private. We have 4 parking spaces and more if we use our courtyard. 22 different families have lived here since it was built. At some point in the past most of the original Georgian features had been removed. The roofs are very well insulated with 270mm of insulation. Every window has an insulated blind and thick curtains and one 9ft high window in the kitchen has secondary glazing.
We had a comprehensive surveyors report which a previous potential purchaser commissioned. Reading the report and looking at the house carefully before we bought it it was obvious that lots of improvements and restoration were required but didnt need to be done immediately and so it has proved. Many things I have tackled myself at minimal cost. For instance the damp proofing which the surveyor said would cost £5000 I have done myself for £350. We refurbed the kitchen with paint, new tiles and new flooring instead of going for more modern stuff. Practically the whole house has been decorated with strong colours like the Georgians used instead of boring magnolias and greys which are now in vogue. We have found quite a lot of furniture from auctions, the tip shop and car boot sales. The work to put the place right is almost finished and has cost about £20k, the surveyor reckoned £65k. I am certainly not whingeing about the cost of the choice we made or putting the original features back, a process that is continuing.
The consequence of a trebling of the gas price was not something I or anyone else could have anticipated. What we have done heatingwise is to mitigate the consequences as far as possible. That included dressing sensibly indoors and our thermal leisure suits have helped with being able to reduce the temperature in some areas of the house which is common sense. There is a large kitchen dining room with an Aga in which there is two large sofas. If you wanted to you could sit there all day in a tee shirt and shorts. The Aga heats the hot water cylinder and the bathrooms and the heat rises up the generous stairwell to heat the upper floors. We also have a Worcester Bosch condensing boiler feeding microbore radiators throughout the house. There is also have a multifuel stove in the sitting room which we light if it is particularly chilly. Its still an expensive house to heat. I anticipate an annual bill of around £3500 for electricity and gas which we can easily afford although it is more than we anticipated when we purchased the house 18 months ago. Avoiding stamp duty has more or less paid for the rectifications and improvements we have carried out. There is a sizeable 2 story annexe which we use as a hobbies room and a huge garage and paved coutyard.
The house is situated less than 100 yards from a Post Office Stores, a family butcher, bus stop, pub and club in a village setting. A wonderful place which we are very pleased to call home.

Al

[853]

One cold snap in 1997 I recorded the temp and took gas and elec readings one night and heated the lounge to 20 degrees using the gas fire.

Gas fire? That might be only one step up from piping car exhaust fumes into the house!
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/01/ ... dy-reveals

Why do occasional wood burner exhausts out the chimney get all the abuse, while routine gas exhausts into the living space for heating and cooking go uncommented?

It was January 1997, I had the gas supply removed within six months!

[mjr]

Why do occasional wood burner exhausts out the chimney get all the abuse, while routine gas exhausts into the living space for heating and cooking go uncommented?

If you were trapped in a huge sealed warehouse with plants and trees to help balance your exhaled carbon dioxide (and no outside supply of replacement air) inside of which is a small cabin in which to sleep and keep warm, would you keep warm in winter by cutting down trees and burning them or by using a supply of gas while working out how to keep warm more sustainably?

Because the hard facts are that a domestic wood burning stove is many orders worse than heating by gas, especially (but not only) with respect to particulate matter. [...]

But it's not, especially with respect to NOx, if the gas is used in a fire, hob or oven, because of the chimney, but anyway, why not condemn both and use electric heating and cooking? Why is it always only wood getting slated?

[mjr]

The roofs are very well insulated with 10" of insulation.

Been a long time since 10 inches was “very well insulated”. Put another 8 up there if possible.

[axel_knutt]

My house is a 1947 3 bed semi, uninsulated except for 4" of loft insulation. It's cavity wall downstairs, and solid wall upstairs, with single glazing.

The cheapest and quickest payback option is another 4" of loft insulation, but it's also the smallest saving, and for that I'll lose my floor unless I pay extra for another one, and also lose headroom. Not worth it.

The next cheapest and quickest paying is cavity insulation, which saves about 3 times as much as more loft insulation, but that won't be happening under any circumstances as long as CIGA hang on to their well-earned repuataion for being a load of shysters who don't honour the guarantee.

The biggest saving is the solid wall, but external insulation is also by far the most expensive, with a long payback. It also looks terrible, and has to be chipped away any time the windows need renewing.

Windows have an even worse payback period for less saving, and worst of all is the floor, with worst level of upheaval as well.

[al_yrpal]

The roofs are very well insulated with 10" of insulation.

Been a long time since 10 inches was “very well insulated”. Put another 8 up there if possible.

How much loft insulation is enough?
If you already have 270mm of loft insulation, whatever the material, you will not benefit from a top up. The cost of materials and installation will be too high for the few pounds a year you will save.

The insulation certicate I have dated 2011 quotes 250mm and a total thickness of 270mm which is standard for new builds so I am sticking with that. We have looked at secondary glazing which comes in at £3k but looks awful and makes access to sliding sashes very difficult. Lowering living temperatures and adjusting boiler flow temperature to 50 degrees has saved a bit. Hopefully the crazy energy prices will come down eventually.

Al

[francovendee]

AL, I think those that advocate keeping every room in the house in the 25° range so they can walk around in their tee shirts aren't as old as us. As I get older I do feel the cold more but as I've never lived in 'warm' houses I know I can put on a thicker jumper.
Like you I live in an old house and have done what I can to insulate the walls, roof , doors and windows.
Good luck to those who heat their homes like a hot house, it's their money but even If I could afford it I wouldn't;
Typing this the thermometer is showing 15.5°. I don't feel cold but my hands are a bit chilly. It's wet today so I will light the wood burner lunchtime to make it feel more cheery.

[al_yrpal]

Franco, couldnt agree more, a comfortable temperature is number one priority here. And, sensible expenditure is number two.
One thinks of southern France being a warmer spot but I know different having visited pals in the Condom area. It was freezing!

Al

[pwa]

Carpets are a good idea if you want warmth. We have downstairs rooms with hard floors (tiles or lino) and they feel much cooler on bare feet than the carpeted living room.