Heat in the home
- simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home
Next week promises less than balmy temp.s, here in Bristol...
We'll maybe have to review the ch embargo then!S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: Heat in the home
Have just read this article in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... -by-spring
It suggests two things that I would take issue with:
1. That anyone will have to spend a third of their income on fuel: I find that not believable but I am interested to find out who and why.
2. That it is unreasonable to spend a tenth of one's income on fuel.
I think to get heating and everything else for 10% is laughably cheap.
I'm very happy to hear contrary opinions on this and I promise to read the article again in case I have misinterpreted it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... -by-spring
It suggests two things that I would take issue with:
1. That anyone will have to spend a third of their income on fuel: I find that not believable but I am interested to find out who and why.
2. That it is unreasonable to spend a tenth of one's income on fuel.
AIUI the reduction in fuel costs over the years (decades) has simply allowed household income to be diverted to rents and mortgages - the situation is much more realistic now with fuel (for all those life fundamentals such as cooking, bathing and heating) playing a more central role as in fact it always did.The new figures suggest pensioners will be hit hard with more than 70% spending 10% of their income on fuel – seen by some as the benchmark for fuel poverty. However, an astonishing 96% of lone parent families with two or more children and over 85% of all couples with three or more children will be in the same situation by April.
I think to get heating and everything else for 10% is laughably cheap.
I'm very happy to hear contrary opinions on this and I promise to read the article again in case I have misinterpreted it.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Heat in the home
Fuel definitely has been too cheap at two levels: it hasn’t reflected the genuinely sustainable cost of fuel; and, because having it cheap encourages environmentally unsustainable over-consumption.
But, that doesn’t mean that a sudden price has hike doesn’t cause genuine, substantial difficulty, poverty and pain for a great many people.
But, that doesn’t mean that a sudden price has hike doesn’t cause genuine, substantial difficulty, poverty and pain for a great many people.
- simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home
I'm not entirely sure about this 'too cheap' business... Clearly, for some, the commodity (whether food, or energy etc. etc,) in question has not been too cheap at all - indeed, many would argue that they've been at pretty much the right price eg busy single-parent trying to feed a family has made many a meal from a dirt cheap battery chicken carcass. Tesco et al will no doubt report that the food they sell has been at prices that have worked well for them. Same applies to the share holders who will have been cheerfully enjoying continued dividends - so how does this 'too cheap' idea work?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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Re: Heat in the home
I've been spending more than 10% of my budget on fuel for years. When fuel was £700 my annual expenditure was ~£6000, so if and when it goes up to £4300 that will be 45% of my total expenditure.horizon wrote: ↑27 Nov 2022, 11:40am Have just read this article in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... -by-spring
It suggests two things that I would take issue with:
1. That anyone will have to spend a third of their income on fuel: I find that not believable but I am interested to find out who and why.
2. That it is unreasonable to spend a tenth of one's income on fuel.
AIUI the reduction in fuel costs over the years (decades) has simply allowed household income to be diverted to rents and mortgages - the situation is much more realistic now with fuel (for all those life fundamentals such as cooking, bathing and heating) playing a more central role as in fact it always did.The new figures suggest pensioners will be hit hard with more than 70% spending 10% of their income on fuel – seen by some as the benchmark for fuel poverty. However, an astonishing 96% of lone parent families with two or more children and over 85% of all couples with three or more children will be in the same situation by April.
I think to get heating and everything else for 10% is laughably cheap.
I'm very happy to hear contrary opinions on this and I promise to read the article again in case I have misinterpreted it.
Indeed. The problem is that the rich can easily afford to be profligate, whilst the poor struggle to heat their homes.Nearholmer wrote: ↑27 Nov 2022, 11:48am Fuel definitely has been too cheap at two levels: it hasn’t reflected the genuinely sustainable cost of fuel; and, because having it cheap encourages environmentally unsustainable over-consumption.
But, that doesn’t mean that a sudden price has hike doesn’t cause genuine, substantial difficulty, poverty and pain for a great many people.
There are only two solutions: either put an end to wealth inequality, or introduce a steeply progressive fuel tariff that makes it affordable for the poor to buy a frugal amount, and prohibitively expensive for the rich to be profligate. And it would have to be very steep to make the lower tier affordable on benefits and the upper tier out of reach of millionaires.
As I say above, it's a double-ended problem: too cheap for the rich and too expensive for the poor, a catch-22 that can't be solved with a single flat-rate tariff for all users.simonineaston wrote: ↑27 Nov 2022, 12:13pm I'm not entirely sure about this 'too cheap' business... Clearly, for some, the commodity (whether food, or energy etc. etc,) in question has not been too cheap at all - indeed, many would argue that they've been at pretty much the right price eg busy single-parent trying to feed a family has made many a meal from a dirt cheap battery chicken carcass. Tesco et al will no doubt report that the food they sell has been at prices that have worked well for them. Same applies to the share holders who will have been cheerfully enjoying continued dividends - so how does this 'too cheap' idea work?
From the Rowntree Foundation:
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Heat in the home
The prime example of under-pricing was domestic electricity in the UK, which, because of a cut-throat market that was allowed/encouraged by Ofgem was priced in a way that was unsustainable against even normal minor variations in fuel price, causing multiple providers to go bankrupt. The NAO produced a detailed report about it, castigating Ofgem, if you want more detail.so how does this 'too cheap' idea work?
Examples of fuel prices being so low as to encourage environmentally unsustainable levels of consumption have been all around us from probably the 1980s until very recently. The entire consumerist boom has been on the back of fuel prices low enough for them not to count significantly into the price of goods or transport/travel at the point of consumption ….,. Which is why when they have gone up, poking their heads above the parapet, it has caused such widespread inflation and consternation.
A thing can be “too cheap” and “unaffordable to some” at the same time, especially in a society where there is huge disparity of income. There is a strong argument that food in the UK has become too cheap for economic sustainability and the health of the population, let alone environmental sustainability too, yet we all know that some people really struggle to afford enough food.
- simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home
So, what's the alternative? And when will it be available? I'll buy some - providing it's not too dear, of course!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: Heat in the home
This is the bit I dion't understand (BTW, I agree strongly with many of your other points).axel_knutt wrote: ↑27 Nov 2022, 12:18pm
I've been spending more than 10% of my budget on fuel for years. When fuel was £700 my annual expenditure was ~£6000, so if and when it goes up to £4300 that will be 45% of my total expenditure.
AIUI, it is almost always possible to get about £1000 per month either from the minimum wage or from various benefits. And it would not cost £350 to heat/power a small house or flat occupied by a person on a low income.
So what I would need is a specific but generic example (if you see what I mean) to show that your figures are not restricted to very specific and unusual circumstances. But what I do not want to do is to ask someone on here to give a detailed run-down of their personal and financial circumstances!
My main point probably is that I reckon the media is conflating two things: very low income (e.g. someone living on the street) and very high usage (e.g. someone living in a very large house). So their general conclusions about the cost of living crisis are somewhat inaccurate although there may be specific circumstances that do exist.
I also note however that there is a "crunch period" while rents and mortgages adjust for affordability in the light of fuel price increases.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Heat in the home
An income distribution a great deal flatter than the one we have now, plus pricing that allows economic sustainability and incentivises environmental sustainability.So, what's the alternative? And when will it be available? I'll buy some - providing it's not too dear, of course!
Not any time sound round here, I fear.
Buying political outcomes is very expensive, and corrupt.
Re: Heat in the home
A pair of EV charging points have been installed in our village hall car park. Charging costs 20p a unit.
If I lived closer I would be running an extension lead to provide the electric in my house which currently costs me 35p a unit.
How come EV charging is so relatively cheap, who's subsidising it.
If I lived closer I would be running an extension lead to provide the electric in my house which currently costs me 35p a unit.
How come EV charging is so relatively cheap, who's subsidising it.
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Re: Heat in the home
Isn’t about the best that could be done a set of figures based on a load of averages:So what I would need is a specific but generic example (if you see what I mean) to show that your figures are not restricted to very specific and unusual circumstances
- a couple on median wages;
- living in a house of average cost;
- having national average mortgage or rent to pay;
- caring for 1.7 (or whatever the average is) children;
- buying national average weekly shop;
Etc, etc.
There would probably be barely anyone in the country fitting all the averages, so what it would tell you, I’m not sure.
One could then run similar scenarios for a couple on other levels of income, 25th percentile and 75th percentile maybe, but again I’m not totally sure it would really help understanding.
I tend to conceive of it as a sloping beach, poorest standing at the foot, richest at the top on the prom. As the tide of prices rises, more and more people get first wet, then gradually become immersed.
Before the current inflation, some people were already up to their chests in water, and they are now barely able to get breath to their nostrils. Further up the beach, most of the middling sort are getting wet up to their knees or waist, while on the prom the very richest are dry as bones, enjoying the fresh air and sea views, not noticing the mass drowning playing out below their noses.
Re: Heat in the home
I'm not sure that it is, Universal Credit for a single adult is around £400 a month, plus a housing element if a tenant, though that may not cover all the rent. You may also have assumed that those on the minimum wage always get a full weeks work, for the thousands on zero or minimum hours contracts, or agency workers with no meaningful contract, this would be false.
Leaving that aside, my net income is around £12,000pa (£7,000 after rent), although some may consider that poverty, I consider it comfortably off! Up until a year ago my fuel expenditure was £360 a year, 3% of income. Currently it's a lot less, probably free if it's a mild winter, the £550 in rebates would cover last years usage at current prices. If it were to go up to 10% of income, I'd need to increase that (Which I have the luxury to do) or I'd have to make uncomfortable compromises. For those who don't have the option to increase income, it makes no difference if it's £5 or £50 a week more than they have.
- PedallingSquares
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Re: Heat in the home
Is it possible that the EV charging company gets a bulk buying discount - or could there some sort of government subsidy?rjb wrote: ↑27 Nov 2022, 1:41pm A pair of EV charging points have been installed in our village hall car park. Charging costs 20p a unit.
If I lived closer I would be running an extension lead to provide the electric in my house which currently costs me 35p a unit.
How come EV charging is so relatively cheap, who's subsidising it.