Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

Biospace wrote: 30 May 2023, 6:45pm
mjr wrote: 30 May 2023, 5:35pm
axel_knutt wrote: 30 May 2023, 3:21pm Over-automated systems are a PITA. For example if I turn my roomstat up now
That sounds under-automated to me...

Don't worry about the "condensing" feature of your boiler: your controls sound so simplistic that I bet they don't lower the boiler output temperature enough to condense anyway.
Whether or not that system is under or over 'automated' in your opinion is immaterial, the point being made was that removal of human control for home heating doesn't necessarily, automatically improve matters.
Firstly, I don't see how that follows from a tale of the human control lousing things up.

Secondly, I don't remember anyone suggesting otherwise.
A good 'automated' system needs to compute far more than the best ones do at the moment if both temperatures are to be optimised and heating efficiency can make best use of high levels of insulation and heated thermal mass.
I'm pretty sure the best automated systems with lots of temperature sensors, door/window opening sensors, connections to local weather stations, very specific weather forecasts and much more can cope with this... but you may be surprised that temperatures and heating efficiency aren't what most people really want optimised. It's inhabitant comfort. And to do that, we need the human controls so that comfort can be an input to the calculation.

That's far more accessible to most people than learning to operate complex heating systems manually and presumably being restricted when they can leave the premises alone.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

mjr wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:36pm I'm pretty sure the best automated systems with lots of temperature sensors, door/window opening sensors, connections to local weather stations, very specific weather forecasts and much more can cope with this... but you may be surprised that temperatures and heating efficiency aren't what most people really want optimised. It's inhabitant comfort. And to do that, we need the human controls so that comfort can be an input to the calculation.
Quantification of inhabitant comfort and the importance of human control is the point someone else was making upthread.

The best systems frequently cannot accurately predict local weather or human behaviour and the reliance for heating on a concrete floor mass and heat from humans, fridges etc. increases the need for as accurate a prediction as possible. I've found the best possible way is to remove all the automation except for a timer for when heating is needed and we're both out all day. Only when temperatures have remained well under freezing point has it been needed every day, through most of winter it's usually around 90 minutes every other day.

It took perhaps three or four weeks for us to hone the amount of time required for the floor to receive heat for optimum temperature, but ever since we've been able to create a more comfortable temperature than the internet-linked system and we using ~10% less fuel, confirming what we felt - however much the parameters were adjusted, the house was either too cool or too often warmer than desired.

However achieved, it's a remarkably efficient building and heating system which is increasingly how British homes are heated. It could be even more efficient if there was a localised, 'boostable' heat source for where people sit, especially in larger houses with open floor planning. I see heated sofas are already available.

mjr wrote: 30 May 2023, 5:43pm The big improvement will be when electricity price is no longer tied to gas prices.
Exactly so. Do you know what the proposals are for how it will be priced?
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

We PAYG for energy and I just worked out that if we paid monthly it would cost £283 per month. MSE gives new rates for gas and electricity and I worked out that the new cap will give us a £63 per month reduction for gas and electricity.

I know the drones who send us bills have to buy energy in advance but I get the feeling we are all being heartily ripped off especially by the owners of so called green energy suppliers whose costs havent appreciably increased?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jdsk
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jdsk »

"New buildings in Scotland will not be permitted to have gas boilers in them from the spring of next year under new rules put forward by the Scottish Government."
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/235 ... ings-2024/

Jonathan
softlips
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by softlips »

al_yrpal wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 4:06pm We PAYG for energy and I just worked out that if we paid monthly it would cost £283 per month. MSE gives new rates for gas and electricity and I worked out that the new cap will give us a £63 per month reduction for gas and electricity.

I know the drones who send us bills have to buy energy in advance but I get the feeling we are all being heartily ripped off especially by the owners of so called green energy suppliers whose costs havent appreciably increased?

Al
Just had a letter from EDF to say our DD is going down by £63 from next month to £126 (all electric air sourced heat pump heating etc).
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Thats impressive. Just for fun we have been looking at various new homes for sale around here and at the moment they are all being fitted with gas boilers and tiny radiators. Soon that will have to change and I will be interested to see what happens? At one site we visited built by Poundburys builders they seemed a bit worried about how things would go in the future.
We happily pay an energy premium for living in a nice old place with a gas Aga, a gas boiler and a decent garden. But, cant help feeling slightly guilty sometimes. Having spent a large sum putting the place right an expensive heat pump installation isnt on the cards.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

al_yrpal wrote: 16 Jun 2023, 3:15pm Having spent a large sum putting the place right an expensive heat pump installation isnt on the cards.
Would you need an expensive one? What's the heat demand on the EPC?

And I'd say a place hasn't been put right if it isn't ready for a heat pump.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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francovendee
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

I'd say the house is right for Al. There's no end of things you can do to a home that you 'might' need but financially doesn't make sense.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Bills to service the Aga, the Worcester Bosch gas boiler, the woodburner and flue added up to over £600 this year (including a bill to increase the incoming gas pressure by fitting some new gas pipework). I suppose we have to add that to the eyewatering energy bill :(

At the end of September the Aga goes on again. We are looking forward to it :D

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
axel_knutt
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by axel_knutt »

mjr wrote: 30 May 2023, 5:35pm
My old system was so simple: no roomstat at all, just a timer & radstats, and if you felt chilly you just turned the radstat up a bit until you're warm enough, then back down again. Having a roomstat when there's already a radstat in each room is barking mad: it keeps shutting off the boiler based on the temperature in just one room, when the radstats in other rooms aren't necessarily satisfied.
Again, that sounds under-automated, with the roomstat being used as an on-off switch for the boiler, instead of the controller evaluating the roomstat, radstats and any pipe-stats to decide if the boiler needs to be on or off.
Nope, just get rid of the roomstat, then the boiler provides the radstats with a constant supply of heat with which to do their job of providing your chosen level of comfort, and then the boilerstat just tops up the return water as necessary.
A timer instead of a modern controller would also be rubbish, potentially running the boiler when nothing wants the heat, which will be very inefficient.
Nope, my old boiler was using 12MWh pa mean from 1998-2006 incl, the new condensing one has used 14.4MWh pa mean since it was fitted in 2017, primarily because I wasn't having to fight a running battle with a controller that thinks it knows best.
14 years ago when I was cycling regularly I could sit in the lounge in shorts and t-shirt, and be comfortable at 17C, nowadays I can wear long trousers and a jumper, and still feel cold at 23C. No heating controller can know that, and it wouldn't need to if it wasn't robbing the occupants of their control over the system.
The net result is that my energy-saving condensing boiler isn't saving any energy at all, because I have to turn up the roomstat higher than I really want it just to stop it from sabotaging the heat supply to the other rooms.
Don't worry about the "condensing" feature of your boiler: your controls sound so simplistic that I bet they don't lower the boiler output temperature enough to condense anyway.
The heating flow temperature that I set on the boilerstat only operates at first switch-on whilst the house is warming up, after that the controller turns the flow temperature down whether you want it to or not. The boilerstat is set to 60C here, but as you can see, as soon as the roomstat is satisfied the controller turns the flow down to 40C:
Flow Temp Jan 2020.png
That's the problem: I can be sat in this dining room frozen to the bone because the radiator in here has had it's water supply sabotaged by the controller. The system's been programmed to prioritise energy-saving over and above whether the heating is actually doing the job it was installed for.
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francovendee
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

The price of logs here has soared. A cubic metre of dry wood on a pallet is now 139€ . This is from the local supermarket and double what we paid our farmer last year. It's always dearer from a shop but I suspect the farmer will want 100€ this time.
We burn around 10 cu mtre a year so its still cheaper by some measure than other forms of heating. No other costs, apart from a new door seal and a replacement glass in twenty years. I have no other expenses on heating. The chimney flu gets swept once every two years and I do it myself. I'm always surprised how little soot it makes in those two years.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Thats a lot cheaper than here. £140 per cubic metre, no pallet. Sounds pretty economical but a load of faffing about.
I think the average heating bill here is about £2500. Ours is more than that. We will be getting £500 heating allowance as pensioners, an additional £300 this winter.
Reading of the scorching summer temperatures and wildfires think I would rather be here.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
francovendee
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

Given a choice I'd have a home here and in the UK. I'd certainly like to escape the heat here in the summer but I would miss our sunnier winters days if based full time in the UK.
It's fortunate that my heating costs are lower than the UK as it was decided long ago I'm not eligible for any of the heating allowances doled out to pensioners.

A friend tells me he paid £20 for fish and chips last week in Norfolk. He said it wasn't a posh gaff, just a normal restaurant. I don't think I could afford to eat out in the UK.
The last meal we had here was at our local restaurant, cost 15€ for three courses. Buffet starter, roast lamb and a selection of veg and then a creme brulee or ice cream.
Family run, husband cooks and the wife runs the bar and tables. They usually have one or two youngsters there as part of their training, helping out whilst learning. One has recently been given a permanent job.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

Franco, the French Mum and Dad places in rural France are national treasures. I have eaten in many. Its a pity there is nothing similar here. This is truly where France has an edge.
As for Fish and Chips, its quite possible to pay £20 in a middle to upmarket restaurant but its £9.29 in our local chain pub. I have given up local fish and chip shops because of price and too much grease.
After some Which magazine reviews our Friday battered Cod or Haddock comes from either M&S or Tesco. The chips get made in our Air Fryer, the vital steps being the crinkle cutter and rinsing all the surface starch off in cold water. Only a teaspoonful of vegetable (rapeseed) oil being used. Home made Fish and Chips with Mushies total cost about £3 a portion :D

Home is where your heart is....

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Paulatic
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Paulatic »

al_yrpal wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 11:52am
As for Fish and Chips, its quite possible to pay £20 in a middle to upmarket restaurant but its £9.29 in our local chain pub. I have given up local fish and chip shops because of price and too much grease.

Al
What a difference a couple of years make.
Al said
But tomorrow we move to within 2 miles of Tauntons best Chippy, hooray! 8)
I agree with you about the grease. I sometimes chance them for lunch but dare not eat them in the evening.
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