Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

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Jdsk
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 3:15pmWe called in at Tesco Callington this afternoon, and there is a "zebra crossing" near the entrance into the shop.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.50591 ... 312!8i6656
I understand courtesy and protecting the vulnerable etc and would and do always give way, but what is the legality of a Tesco carpark painted zebra crossing that actually isn't a zebra crossing as per the official layout?

No flashing beacons, and non-standard and not officially painted white bits?
For England and Wales: "The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997".
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/199 ... tents/made
which include:

“crossing” means a crossing for pedestrians established—
(a)in the case of a trunk road, by the Secretary of State pursuant to section 24 of the 1984 Act; and
(b)in the case of any other road, by a local traffic authority pursuant to section 23 of that Act;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/199 ... ion/3/made

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

As I said right at the top of what you quoted "It depends on the legislation"

I presume the crossings in question are on the supermarket car park which, although it may be privately owned is a public place in that when it's in use as a car park it's open to the public. Therefore, if drivers decide to eg ignore pedestrian routes the relevant offences are dangerous/careless/inconsiderate driving etc.
2 Dangerous driving.

A person who drives a mechanically propelled vehicle dangerously on a road or other public place is guilty of an offence.
(My bold)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/2

The other similar offences include the same "or other public place."

FWIW, the bit in bold was added in the 1991 amendments, and IIRC it was to deal with bad driving on places like supermarket car parks.

It is correct that the various crossing regulation offences require the crossing to comply with the design specifications but that's not what would be charged.
Jdsk
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Jdsk »

The question this time was about the legality of the crossing. If it doesn't meet the criteria which I quoted it isn't a crossing within the meaning of the Regulations and they don't apply.

(Legality might have also meant whether any offence was committed in painting the marks on the ground, but that didn't seem to be the commonsensical meaning.)

...

We've already established the jurisdiction of the RTA over privately-owned places to which the public has access.

Jonathan
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Mick F
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Mick F »

Thanks guys.
Good info as usual.

Jdsk has summed my thoughts up well.

The question this time was about the legality of the crossing. If it doesn't meet the criteria ........... it isn't a crossing .........

Therefore, it ain't a Zebra Crossing by definition.

That doesn't absolve anyone from using common sense and looking after pedestrians with shopping trollies of course.
Mick F. Cornwall
thirdcrank
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 3:51pm The question this time was about the legality of the crossing. If it doesn't meet the criteria which I quoted it isn't a crossing within the meaning of the Regulations and they don't apply.

(Legality might have also meant whether any offence was committed in painting the marks on the ground, but that didn't seem to be the commonsensical meaning.)

...

We've already established the jurisdiction of the RTA over privately-owned places to which the public has access.

Jonathan
Sorry, I didn't realise that you had already posted when I hit the submit button - slow thinker and even slower typist.

To be thread to needle the 1997 crossing regs were revoked by the TSRGD 2016

.https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/19/made
Jdsk
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 4:06pm
Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 3:51pmTo be thread to needle the 1997 crossing regs were revoked by the TSRGD 2016

.https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/19/made
Thanks.

What's the current equivalent, please?

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

It's been consolidated into the TSRGD (Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions)

Prescription of signs is detailed under Regulation 3

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... ion/3/made

The detail for crossings is in Schedule 14.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/14/made
Jdsk
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 4:21pm It's been consolidated into the TSRGD (Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions)

Prescription of signs is detailed under Regulation 3

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... ion/3/made

The detail for crossings is in Schedule 14.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/14/made
Thanks.

It looks as if they've consolidated the regulations on signs for crossing, but not the definition or the rest of the stuff about crossings.

And the title page doesn't mention its revocation:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/199 ... ction/made
although I've been warned before that those aren't always up to date.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

This has reminded me, if I needed any reminding, that I've now been retired since 1997 and regs introduced that year have already been subject to some amendment. I am long past my best-before date.
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Mick F
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Mick F »

:lol:
Aren't we all!
Mick F. Cornwall
briansnail
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by briansnail »

Apparently someone dropped a fiver by accident - guess what happened
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