CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
mattheus
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by mattheus »

tatanab wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 11:42am club secretary (only 3 years ago) I am pretty sure that there is the option to receive papers and reports by email. I remember getting them in the post, but in my last few years I am sure it was by email. Of course I sent them to my club's CTT delegates with a comment if necessary.

Very few clubs seem to send delegates to their local CTT meetings which is the place where the CTT Region can decide how it wants to direct CTT nationally.
Seems a little pointless if your Regional Delegate then votes against your wishes at National Council (see Mr Welsh BC Blazer).

And as an aside, it seems better to me to forward the CTT email to all club members - it only takes one click for the uninterested to delete such things; thus maximise openness and sharing of information to everyone effected.
tatanab
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by tatanab »

mattheus wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 12:43pm Seems a little pointless if your Regional Delegate then votes against your wishes at National Council (see Mr Welsh BC Blazer).
Agreed entirely.
And as an aside, it seems better to me to forward the CTT email to all club members - it only takes one click for the uninterested to delete such things; thus maximise openness and sharing of information to everyone effected.
That is up to your club secretary. In my case the club had very few competitive members and we could be certain that our very experienced delegates would look after rider's interests.
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TrevA
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by TrevA »

axel_knutt wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 11:05am
TrevA wrote: 6 Dec 2021, 3:08pmnot easy to see black skinsuit clad rider, with a black helmet, in an aero tuck, riding a black bike against a background of black tarmac
There'll be a bit of a fuss if you dare suggest that hi viz is easier to see.
Not hi viz but anything other than black. You can see the riders when they get closer, but we have one guy who already uses a front light and wears a white topped skinsuit. He can be seen earlier than the others wearing black. And to be clear, I’m not talking about rider safety here, I’m talking about the timekeeper being able to pick out the riders coming towards the finish.
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TrevA
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by TrevA »

tatanab wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 1:10pm
And as an aside, it seems better to me to forward the CTT email to all club members - it only takes one click for the uninterested to delete such things; thus maximise openness and sharing of information to everyone effected.
That is up to your club secretary. In my case the club had very few competitive members and we could be certain that our very experienced delegates would look after rider's interests.
But the process relies on several links in the chain - National to District to Club Sec to individual club members. CTT has a National register database of people who ride time trials, including their email addresses - why not send the agenda to those people directly, bypassing the links in the chain.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
tatanab
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by tatanab »

TrevA wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 5:17pmCTT has a National register database of people who ride time trials, including their email addresses
Not entirely. Just to get away from the notion that everybody uses electronic communication - There are always people who insist on entering time trials on paper forms and so on. Yes, I know the numbers are small. One club of which I am a member has about 20% of the membership who have no email address or are not prepared to show it. An additional problem with email addresses is that some people change them quite often and don't think to tell all those who might need to know. Let's estimate that CTT can reach 80% and more of its riders by these means.

Edit - another thought - the above applies only to competitors. Every member of an affiliated club may be affected by national proposals, and some of those non competitive members (like me these days) will be timekeepers, regular marshals etc. Therefore any circulation by CTT national should be restricted to its member club's nominated official (the secretary), and then it is up to them to pass on information to their on members as they see fit.

Pretty glad I no longer compete or promote events since CTT has made things increasingly difficult over the last 20 years or so. At least in my Luddite view. :D
mattheus
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by mattheus »

tatanab wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 6:45pm ...
There are always people who insist on entering time trials on paper forms and so on. Yes, I know the numbers are small. One club of which I am a member has about 20% of the membership who have no email address or are not prepared to show it.
Glad to hear it :mrgreen:

Out of interest, what do you think is the best way to get relevant info to those people? [in this instance - or more generally!]
tatanab
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by tatanab »

mattheus wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 8:25am Out of interest, what do you think is the best way to get relevant info to those people? [in this instance - or more generally!]
Assuming we are talking about local clubs, not those with a widely scattered membership like Manchester Wheelers 40 years ago. I would say it is up to the secretary how they approach this. It would not be sensible to expect them to be able (or the club to afford) to make paper copies of the reports to give to members, but it might be practical for the secretary or committee to decide that there are topics/proposals that need to be publicised. These topics could be circulated as an excerpt from the CTT paperwork. Such topics are not likely to crop up every year.

Just a suggestion to show how it is possible, but depends on the secretary and committee . I think the CTT has the right approach - "we send information to the member club and it is up to them what they do with it".
mattheus
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by mattheus »

tatanab wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 9:00am
mattheus wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 8:25am Out of interest, what do you think is the best way to get relevant info to those people? [in this instance - or more generally!]
Assuming we are talking about local clubs, not those with a widely scattered membership like Manchester Wheelers 40 years ago. I would say it is up to the secretary how they approach this. It would not be sensible to expect them to be able (or the club to afford) to make paper copies of the reports to give to members, but it might be practical for the secretary or committee to decide that there are topics/proposals that need to be publicised. These topics could be circulated as an excerpt from the CTT paperwork. Such topics are not likely to crop up every year.
So you're suggesting that it would often be practical to distribute printouts by hand? (due to the small number of email-phobes) Yup, could work. It's not important, just an interesting side discussion!
I think the CTT has the right approach - "we send information to the member club and it is up to them what they do with it".
Well I'm not so sure; it does seem reasonable, but look how widely the system has failed this year. (I'm sure that if riders are photographed without lids at club events, CTT will not view it as a purely local matter! ) Perhaps because I work in QC and H&S, I'd say a belt-n-braces approach would be better; why not email all CTT registered members as well?

Each email should include a suggestion, like: "Please make sure everyone you know involved in the sport is aware of these."
This would probably slash the overlooked by an enormous factor, for sod-all extra work.
Steady rider
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by Steady rider »

Wondering if CTT could be liable regarding if someone falls off in a hill climb event the impact speed may be low and evidence suggest this can increase the risk of injury. The CTT are requiring helmets to be worn and in hill climb events the likely impact speed in a fall could be expected to be low.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... 553abdffc6
c) StClair and Chinn reported ‘However, in both low speed linear impacts and the most severe oblique cases, linear and rotational accelerations may increase to levels corresponding to injury severities as high as AIS 2 or 3, at which a marginal increase (up to 1 AIS interval) in injury outcome may be expected for a helmeted head.’ Assessment of current bicycle helmets for the potential to cause rotational injury (trb.org)
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pjclinch
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by pjclinch »

Steady rider wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 12:10pm Wondering if CTT could be liable regarding if someone falls off in a hill climb event the impact speed may be low and evidence suggest this can increase the risk of injury.
Chances of anyone proving it made matters worse is so close to zero as makes no odds.
Note how nobody (at least AFAIK) has ever won (or maybe even bothered bringing) a case against an organiser after a helmeted rider took a head injury in any other event (sports, training, leisure rides etc.)

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TrevA
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by TrevA »

tatanab wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 6:45pm
TrevA wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 5:17pmCTT has a National register database of people who ride time trials, including their email addresses
Not entirely. Just to get away from the notion that everybody uses electronic communication - There are always people who insist on entering time trials on paper forms and so on. Yes, I know the numbers are small. One club of which I am a member has about 20% of the membership who have no email address or are not prepared to show it. An additional problem with email addresses is that some people change them quite often and don't think to tell all those who might need to know. Let's estimate that CTT can reach 80% and more of its riders by these means.

Edit - another thought - the above applies only to competitors. Every member of an affiliated club may be affected by national proposals, and some of those non competitive members (like me these days) will be timekeepers, regular marshals etc. Therefore any circulation by CTT national should be restricted to its member club's nominated official (the secretary), and then it is up to them to pass on information to their on members as they see fit.

Pretty glad I no longer compete or promote events since CTT has made things increasingly difficult over the last 20 years or so. At least in my Luddite view. :D
Well, I’m registered on their database and I don’t ride time trials and haven’t done for about 8 years, nothing to stop officials like me registering. We, as a club, held 3 open TT’s this year, and the organisers received 1 postal entry between them - that’s 2 almost full fields and another event with 40 entries so that’s one postal entry out of 250 riders, shows the vast majority of active riders are registered on the online entry system and are using it to enter races (presumably with an up to date email address, or they would get start sheets). Even reaching 80% of affected riders is way better than they are achieving now. You could do this in addition to sending stuff out to club secs. Better to receive info twice than not receive it at all.

I agree, things are more complex now than they were when I ran an open event in the 1990’s. No need for risk assessments and all the additional rules around lights and helmets then.
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tatanab
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by tatanab »

TrevA wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 1:57pmone postal entry out of 250 riders
Also, a small minority of organisers accept only postal entries.

I have a CTT identity, but only because about 3 years ago I entered a local event (on a paper form) just to make up the numbers. The organiser, a club mate, unasked, created an identity for me. I think I have used it once since. I last promoted a TT a year or so before internet entry was introduced.

My TT heydays were late 60s to early 80s. The entry form needed lots of probably irrelevant information; HQ would be a frame tent in a layby (no toilet facilities), there were no signs to put out along the course, no risk assessment, and probably less than half the entry drove to the start. I stopped regular TTs in 1981, riding perhaps a couple a year to remind myself why I stopped.
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TrevA
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by TrevA »

tatanab wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 2:28pm
TrevA wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 1:57pmone postal entry out of 250 riders
Also, a small minority of organisers accept only postal entries.
I bet they don’t get many entries to their events.

I ride a fair bit of audax and there’s one organiser locally who will only accept postal audax entries. This is a major faff, as I have to find my chequebook, buy some envelopes and stamps, print off a form, send it off, get the entry info back in postal form, make my own GPX file based on the written instructions, ride the event, submit my brevet card then wait months for it to be returned by post.
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mattsccm
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by mattsccm »

The idea of all or even many riders being involved in an on line system is flawed. Many a club event (the evening 10 type of event) is held on a turn up and ride basis. My own club is as are the other nearby clubs. If thats all you ride then you won't be going on line. I did about 30 TTs this year. Not a trace of the computer apart from checking results occasionally.
drossall
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Re: CTT introduce compulsory helmets and front lights

Post by drossall »

We do entries by Facebook poll. Doubt whether anyone who only rides club events is registered with CTT, whatever the system?
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