Electric cars

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Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:35pm EVs have fewer external costs than ICEs but it still seems to me perverse to subsidise them. I suppose that charging full external costs to ICE users would be politically unacceptable.
The subsidies and taxes are already complex. Doing that in one go would be unacceptable, but having it as a direction of travel (!) doesn't have to be.

But for me the key question is whether we want to accelerate uptake of EVs. I think that we do.

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:46pm

But for me the key question is whether we want to accelerate uptake of EVs. I think that we do.

Jonathan
I guess the question is whether we change the cost comparison by subsidy or by realistic pricing, and I think there are plenty of reasons why we should want to make the cost of all cars reflect the real environmental costs.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric cars

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:35pm EVs have fewer external costs than ICEs but it still seems to me perverse to subsidise them. I suppose that charging full external costs to ICE users would be politically unacceptable.
What other tools does a government had to incentivise their uptake?

The problem with just making fuel more expensive is that it's a regressive tax, and will remain so for at least a couple of decades. Increasing the cost of new ICE vehicles is possible, but it's rather unpalatable for many... Maybe they could up VED on new vehicles.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

Edited: Crossed post.
Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 1:04pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:46pm But for me the key question is whether we want to accelerate uptake of EVs. I think that we do.
I guess the question is whether we change the cost comparison by subsidy or by realistic pricing, and I think there are plenty of reasons why we should want to make the cost of all cars reflect the real environmental costs.
Politics is the art of the possible. And that includes acceptability and rate of change. We need to *rapidly decrease the number of new ICE vehicles. Subsidies for new EVs will help to achieve that.

Jonathan

*As shown upthread the crossover period for carbon dioxide production including both production and use is surprisingly quick for EVs.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 1:10pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:35pm EVs have fewer external costs than ICEs but it still seems to me perverse to subsidise them. I suppose that charging full external costs to ICE users would be politically unacceptable.
What other tools does a government had to incentivise their uptake?

The problem with just making fuel more expensive is that it's a regressive tax, and will remain so for at least a couple of decades. Increasing the cost of new ICE vehicles is possible, but it's rather unpalatable for many... Maybe they could up VED on new vehicles.
Yes. And there are lots of other incremental changes that are achievable.

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 1:10pm
Politics is the art of the possible. And that includes acceptability and rate of change.

Alas, the question is whether the electorate accept that the urgency of the climate catastrophe merits hard choices now in order to avert much harder times in the future.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric cars

Post by [XAP]Bob »

No - the question is whether the politicians think that they need to do less in order to be slightly less unpopular in the short term than the other politicians.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Carlton green
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Carlton green »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 11:42pm So where did those 5k cars come from?

You can’t subsidise second hand cars, you can’t push evs into the second hand market.
All you can do is feed them in to the new market, and let them filter down through the system.
5k cars usually come from depreciation of cars that originally more than that.

You could, if you wished too, sell electric cars for 5k. The price would be very highly subsidised but it is possible. If you did choose such a route then perhaps you’d want to buy electric cars that didn’t cost much in the first place, the lower end of the market. Alternatively, instead of subsidies for cars of (upto) £32 k you could offer substantial help to those who just wanted a basic Fiesta sized car that was electric.

It’s pehaps also possible to tell the car makers that they will sell two small electric cars, with long range batteries too, for every large electric car.

It is perhaps possible (indeed some small garages can already do it) for manufacturers to take older ICE cars and turn them into electric ones - so pushing EV’s into the second hand market. The issue here is the limited availability of batteries and motors and the will to do the work.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Hellhound
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Hellhound »

The Range Rover MHEV looks nice.
3.0 400hp Auto plug-in hybrid.
62miles on electric :lol:
Start at just under £100,000 :D
Makes about as much sense as any PHEV.
Carlton green
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Carlton green »

The power which car drivers are allowed to use on the roads is absolutely ridiculous as is the (excessive) size of vehicles which are defined as a car. What is more is that anyone who passes a car driving test can then go out and drive something with a hundred plus HP. However, in true double standards fashion, if you pass a motorcycle test - what the poor people use to get around - then there’s excessive restrictions on you for ‘safety reasons’. Admittedly motorcycles don’t appear to be as safe as cars and if you misjudge something then you can get killed whilst riding one, on the other hand am idiot in a powerful and large car can kill multiple people in one incident and walk away from his or her car afterwards.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Hellhound
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Hellhound »

Carlton green wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:44pm The power which car drivers are allowed to use on the roads is absolutely ridiculous as is the (excessive) size of vehicles which are defined as a car. What is more is that anyone who passes a car driving test can then go out and drive something with a hundred plus HP.
A hundred plus HP :lol: :lol: When did you pass your test? Most Driving instructors cars are probably over 100BHP nowadays :lol:
Slowtwitch
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Slowtwitch »

I'm all for EVs (the sooner I can breathe easily on city centre rides the better!) but they really do need to have a better soundtrack - the barely audible hum that comes from them isn't enough to make you aware of their presence. Though if these driverless loons get their way, I can't see bicycles and cars in the same transit lanes at all... :roll:
Carlton green
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Carlton green »

Hellhound wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:51am
Carlton green wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:44pm The power which car drivers are allowed to use on the roads is absolutely ridiculous as is the (excessive) size of vehicles which are defined as a car. What is more is that anyone who passes a car driving test can then go out and drive something with a hundred plus HP.
A hundred plus HP :lol: :lol: When did you pass your test? Most Driving instructors cars are probably over 100BHP nowadays :lol:
Don’t that just go to show the lunacy of it all. Since when did anyone actually need all of that power? I’ll tell you, it’s since never. If you can travel all over the world in something like an old Morris Minor Traveller and an old Mini Countryman (both small engine and low power estate type cars) then anything much bigger or more powerful is excessive. It’s long been time to cap the size and power of motor cars and the shift to electric is an opportunity to do so.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 8:25amIt’s long been time to cap the size and power of motor cars and the shift to electric is an opportunity to do so.
What's the ethical principle on which you'd base controlling how big or how much power someone else's vehicle has? Space taken on the road, environmental damage, safety of others... ?

Thanks

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 8:32am
Carlton green wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 8:25amIt’s long been time to cap the size and power of motor cars and the shift to electric is an opportunity to do so.
What's the ethical principle on which you'd base controlling how big or how much power someone else's vehicle has? Space taken on the road, environmental damage, safety of others... ?

Thanks

Jonathan
I think all of those factors valid and doubtless there are more too. Essentially we live in shared space and should (in a kind and caring way) act accordingly; similarly natural resources are limited which to me suggests that using them wisely and sparingly is a good idea.

One could also argue that an imposed cap would limit consumerism and that more heavily taxing those who really do want big and powerful vehicles provides funds for either or socially useful and balancing uses. By way of an example of consequence balancing heavy tax on Tobacco and Alcohol could be directed to health and social care spending.
Last edited by Carlton green on 14 Jan 2022, 8:50am, edited 2 times in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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