Touring bike fit near Leeds

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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531colin
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Re: MAJOR THREAD DERAILMENT ALERT

Post by 531colin »

slowster wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 7:49pm ..........on the MTB I have a riding position which corresponds to riding on the tops of my tourer's drop bars...........
This is exactly the bit which doesn't work for me!
Riding on the tops of drops is OK for just lazing along looking over the hedge (this is something I do).
But if I want to make a bit of progress I need more reach; I think what I'm doing is bracing my lower back/pelvis against the muscular effort of pushing the pedal down. On the odd occasion where I'm really trying I find myself "working the bars" and using the cleats to push the pedal over the top and pull it back at the bottom. (I only pull up on the cleats when out of the saddle, and thats really pulling back and up)
I have had a couple of MTBs with flat bars which put my hands at about the "tops of drops" position; I always put bar ends on which gave me a substitute "hoods" position. I would then ride these bikes mainly on the bar ends, which is fine unless you want the brakes in a hurry. Eventually (having gone the wrong way for the brakes a couple of times) I went back to drops for roughstuff. It was too exciting!
Now arthritic thumbs prevent me using drops, because I can't hang off the hoods on my thumbs to brake. (I also can't hold conventional flat bars for very long....I can ride resting the heel of my hands on the grips, but braking is interesting)
I think with my bullbars I'm using about the same stem lengths as I did with drops (Nitto noodles, with the long ramps) So the back of the grip substitutes the "tops" position, then I have a long grip which substitutes ramps and hoods position. I don't have the drops of course, but I can get down a bit by holding the very front of the bar by the brake levers.
Saddle nose to bar boss is about 52cm; then I have about 12cm of grip plus the bit of bar the brake lever mounts to.
As you say, the Longitude is a long bike, it wears a short stem....

ImageIMG_5332 by 531colin, on Flickr

(its changed a bit since then)
Despite the long top tube, I still have bullbars with grips going forward from the bar boss. I couldn't make the grips come back towards me, it would require an un-feasibly long stem.
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by slowster »

531colin wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 5:45pm This is exactly the bit which doesn't work for me!
Riding on the tops of drops is OK for just lazing along looking over the hedge (this is something I do).
On that particular bike I am almost always lazing along, and I don't ride it much on tarmac. I guess to a degree the bike heavily influences the riding style and even attitude. I very rarely get out of the saddle to power over a rise etc. as I would on a drop barred bike (and I think that the Rohloff is a factor in that as well, since it seems to encourage staying seated and plugging away in a way that derailleur gears do not, even if the intervals between gears are similar).
531colin wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 5:45pm But if I want to make a bit of progress I need more reach; I think what I'm doing is bracing my lower back/pelvis against the muscular effort of pushing the pedal down. On the odd occasion where I'm really trying I find myself "working the bars" and using the cleats to push the pedal over the top and pull it back at the bottom. (I only pull up on the cleats when out of the saddle, and thats really pulling back and up)
I think I am not so different. When I do ride at a faster tempo on tarmac on that particular bike, I do so by increasing cadence rather than shifting to a higher gear, but to do that comfortably I likewise need more reach. The handlebars are loop bars, and I get the extra reach by gripping the front loop. The distance from saddle to the loop is 61cm, i.e. similar to the distance to the hoods on my tourer.
531colin wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 5:45pm Despite the long top tube, I still have bullbars with grips going forward from the bar boss. I couldn't make the grips come back towards me, it would require an un-feasibly long stem.
I think that might be one of the respects in which wide, heavily backswept bars differ from conventional flat bars. The tips of my 710mm 45 degree sweep bars are ~50mm behind the steering axis, and where my hands often grip the bars they are probably in the same plane as the steering axis. My guess is that works because the large width and backsweep result in the steering being braced by the wide angle of my arms and my weight transmitted through them against the bars, and the large backsweep also results in my wrists being relatively straight.

On a more general note, I don't think this is a major thread derailment. In my view the OP is more likely to end up with a handlebar set up that she finds suits her if she herself has a reasonable understanding of the variables and is able to interpret the feedback from her own body to help her determine what changes to make, rather than relying on a bike fitter. I think many of us gradually determine for ourselves that a particular change is desirable, e.g. feeling the need for a slightly longer or shorter stem, to raise or lower the bars etc., because in the course of riding we sense that we would rather have our hands at a slightly different point in space than our current set up provides. It's a bit like saddle choice: only the rider knows whether a particular saddle is comfortable for them.

I think wide alt-bars are more likely to be a suitable option for off-road riding, so I think they are more an alternative choice for MTBs and off-road biased touring bikes than bikes mainly ridden on tarmac. Like your experience with flat bars and bar ends, if the OP finds that she does not make use of the wide grips on the Denham bars other than when braking, and that she spends a lot of time riding with hands on the forward extensions, that will be a good indication that she would probably find drop bars more suitable, providing she chooses the right ones for her and sets them up to suit her. However in her shoes I would stick with the Denham bars for the time being and only switch to drop bars if and when I became convinced that was the right option, not least because it could entail significant additional costs given that Shimano MTB shifters and derailleurs are not always compatible with Shimano road shifters and derailleurs - best not to go down that rabbit hole unless and until she decides she needs to.
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Tams »

Raising my own post from the dead... Between back injuries, crazy work overtime, overseas family illness - it's been hard to get bike fit back up the list, and then it's been so long I feel like it should be a more complete post/dissection...Are, just start!

I would be grateful if anyone could give me their thoughts on the following two shorts of me pedalling my Black Snow LHT.

This is me pedaling on the 'hoods' of the Denham bars
[youtube] https://youtu.be/6zpSjTRZHak [/youtube]

And on the flats
[youtube] https://youtu.be/pHQPt2Etd-A [/youtube]

I don't, as suggested by my injury, have a strong back and maybe want to be more upright, but then when I am more upright, I have less power and it's more difficult to keep up with my husband. He has a Kona Sutra that he often coasts on while I am still pedalling, so rolling resistance also seems to play a part (and my needing to lose some weight :? ). I have been looking at old Salsa Vaya's as they come up, wondering if a shorter reach to stack might suit me better. I want to go steel only for touring, and and it seems most touring bikes are kind of reachy. Hard to know. Maybe carrying it up 5 flights of stairs to my apartment in China just bred resentment for the weight :P
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

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First video is private unable to view.
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slowster
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by slowster »

Tams wrote: 23 May 2023, 8:03pm He has a Kona Sutra that he often coasts on while I am still pedalling, so rolling resistance also seems to play a part
What tyres are fitted to your bike and to his bike, i.e. make, width and exact model, e.g. Schwalbe Marathon Plus vs. Schwalbe Marathon Supreme?
Tams
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Tams »

Paulatic wrote: 23 May 2023, 9:00pm First video is private unable to view.
Hrmm... I am a YouTube newb, but when I look at the settings it says public...
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Paulatic »

Tams wrote: 25 May 2023, 7:54pm
Paulatic wrote: 23 May 2023, 9:00pm First video is private unable to view.
Hrmm... I am a YouTube newb, but when I look at the settings it says public...
It’s available to view now.
To me you look comfier in the first video it appears you’re propping yourself up in the second.
As @slowster mentions what tyres are being used as it can certainly make the difference between oedall8ng and freewheeling.
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531colin
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by 531colin »

Tams (do we call you Tams?) I think you are probably taller than me, and I don't have a disc prolapse. (Since turning 70, I have shrunk to about 5' 9", 1.75m these days....used to be 5'10")

However, looking at your vids. I am reminded of George who I used to ride with decades ago. (George Cadman, a decent track cyclist in his day, old time CTC members will remember George in his red blazer and cap with his starting gun, officiating at the grass track racing at the York Rally.)
George would have said "You look like a monkey up a stick!" and got out his Allen keys right away.

A "monkey up a stick" is all in the same vertical plane....and so are you.....your feet are (almost) directly under your bum, and your hands aren't very far in front.

Contrast your vids with me on my mates trainer in his garage.....

Imagefoot level on bottom pedal by 531colin, on Flickr

As I say, I think you are taller than me, with long femurs I think you said, but my bum is back near the back wheel axle, and my hands are out above the front wheel axle....I was 69 when that was taken.

Somebody with a disc prolapse should pay attention to how their back is loaded, and how it is flexed or extended; I can't offer advice on that.
However, for somebody not carrying an injury, my advice would be....
Put a bit of tape on your saddle rail (so you can get it right back to where it is now) and then slide the saddle all the way back in the seatpost clamp.
Then, on your trainer, ride "on the hoods" and then see if you can maintain your position without propping your torso up on your hands
If you are properly in balance, you can....

ImageBalanced position by 531colin, on Flickr

So far, all this is in my DIY bike fit piece, linked below.

Sitting further behind the pedals will recruit the glutes and hamstrings to extend the hip. Sitting forward relies more on the quads extending the knee.

I don't often say this, but your saddle might be a touch low; but try setting the saddle back as a first thing to do.
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Tams »

Thanks for taking the time to check out the clips, Colin.
I put the seat all the way back and up about 5mm. Within 45 min I got the same one sided back pain and realised I was rocking a bit to reach the pedal on the right side. Put the height back down and it didn't stopped hurting as much/didn't get worse, but I will have to wait for another 1 hour+ ride to test as it only really shows around then. Perhaps it is some oddity of my proportions, or a lack of flexibility somewhere, but I seem to need the height on the low end.
I did think my pedalling was more efficient though, with seat back. It felt better in some ways. Unfortunately I am even more bent forward. That caused some...ahem... discomfort as my saddle is designed for moderate/~60º riding not ~45º.
I am going to try to get a hold of a super short stem to test if a shorter reach feels better - I guess it will be pretty much the same reach as before I put the saddle back, but with the whole lot 30 mm back. I don't think the bike would be ridable like that, but perhaps somewhat diagnostic :/
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531colin
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by 531colin »

If its the right pedal you struggle to reach, we need videos of you on the trainer looking at your right side!
Do you know if you have a difference in leg lengths? (somebody on here does Audax 67?)
Have a look here https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... n-it-be-2/
In Steve's third video of a client, Steve has put magic marker dots at the top of the iliac crest (I think) to demonstrate how this guy drops one hip more than the other. ....we need that video as well! Steve talks about the side the rider doesn't drop being "sacrificed"....i think I have that the right way round....meaning the side he doesn't drop the hip, he must over-extend the knee to reach the pedal....I'll have to read it again!
Actually, anything by Steve Hogg is worth reading.....he actually looks at the rider on their bike, rather than forcing people to comply with a set of "magic numbers".
The best thing i know of about female saddle problems is this https://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/04 ... ddles.html there may even be an update. She talks about changing the saddle angle ie dropping the front of the saddle a bit, this might be worth trying rather than a shorter stem?
Going back to your videos, the first thing that strikes me is how short your reach is. (Also when you are on the straights you have your back very straight, almost going into extension, which is unusual but not a problem). (pelvic tilt and back extension/flexion may be something we can't change....just how individuals work)
I've got crowds of stems if you want to try a different reach.
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Tams »

I am back after unexpected surgery has kept me off the bike a while (boo!)
I haven't tried a short stem yet, but I have today taken videos from the right on the 'hoods'
https://youtube.com/shorts/lCCyPywb6wI?feature=share
and on the flats
https://youtube.com/shorts/vTUXIRDFOgI?feature=share
with the seat back, and fairly low.
I agree my reach is extremely short - T-Rex - which is why I have been considering whether I need to throw in the towel on this frame entirely and see if I can buy a second hand Salsa Vaya 55cm frame set, which I think has a quite short reach for its stack height - still need an extender for the handlebars though. I would rather if I could get this bike to work. I would hate to go buy another frame and figure out its the rider that is the problem :roll:

I couldn't get the third video to load on the page you linked to but I read the text and watched the other two videos. I do have short hamstrings/posterior chain which I am doing physio for and related to my back issue or at least how I have held myself since getting it, so it could be that I need my seat lower than usual while I am still trying to increase that flexibility.

I am going to try to fit in a longer ride tomorrow (did a half hour today) to test for back pain after an hour or so, when it usually kicks in.
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Jdsk »

Tams wrote: 29 Jul 2023, 5:29pm ...
I haven't tried a short stem yet, but I have today taken videos from the right on the 'hoods'
https://youtube.com/shorts/lCCyPywb6wI?feature=share
and on the flats
https://youtube.com/shorts/vTUXIRDFOgI?feature=share
with the seat back, and fairly low.
...
On the flats: Does it feel as if you would be more comfortable with less cocking (extension) of your wrists?

Jonathan
Tams
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Tams »

Yes! I had been so focused elsewhere I hadn't noticed. I have just tried rotating the Ergon grips to see if that helps - will test ride tomorrow.
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531colin
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by 531colin »

Firstly.....get your riding position worked out on the bike you have.....until you know your position is right, you don't know what bike to buy.

Steve Hogg's video has been taken down.....how absurd! who could possibly be offended by a vid. of a bloke on a trainer with magic marker dots on his iliac crests to show his hips rocking!

You look better with the saddle further back; I wouldn't go looking for a shorter stem just yet, I don't think you will need one, and actually I have shoals of stems here in Harrogate if you want to try one for free.

In both your new videos there is something going on which I don't understand; as your right foot approaches the top of the stroke, you raise your right hip.
Current fashion is to have a very HIGH saddle, and its common to see people rocking their hips to reach the pedal at the BOTTOM.........but I don't think you are dropping your left hip to reach the left pedal at the bottom of the stroke.
Is it possible that short hamstrings/posterior chain are limiting your hip flexion?
A vid. from the back will show if the hip raising is unilateral or bilateral....?......(try saddle up a bit....5 or 10mm?)

Most if not all cyclists have short hamstrings; possibly due to doing huge numbers of repeats of moving the legs in a very restricted way!
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Re: Touring bike fit near Leeds

Post by Paulatic »

:D
531colin wrote: 1 Aug 2023, 7:31pm
Steve Hogg's video has been taken down.....how absurd! who could possibly be offended by a vid. of a bloke on a trainer with magic marker dots on his iliac crests to show his hips rocking!
It’s here just tell them you’re old enough
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