Touring bike fit near Leeds

[Tams]

I am new to Leeds and the UK. I have a size 58 cm Blacksnow LHT and am having lots of issues getting comfortable on it. I don't know if it's me or the bike size or if can be fixed with fit. I couldn't get a fit done where I was living when I bought the bike (Northeast China 2020).

I am strongly leaning to getting a bike fit proper, but have some reservations:
1. I have alt-bars and I would want them to have some experience with non-standard handle bars.
2. I want to be more upright than road riders both for my neck that seems to hate low bars, and because I want to gawk at the sweet places I go.
3. Unfortunately, is male-centered bike knowledge: I have had many bad experiences from arrogant dismissal of certain measurable truths such as my (and women's statistically) wider interischial tuberocity distance (I am also looking at you Brooks saddles...) to not believing my T-rex proportions (mostly caused by long femora), or just patronising, lady-bike nonsense.
4. I am conditioned into being tight with my money after years of single income postodocing with international moves. In this case, that just makes me want to be really sure of what I am paying for before being willing to commit.
5. I am not sure if I am going to be up for a new frame or the like, and really don't want to be pressured into purchases.

Can anyone recommend from experience somewhere near Leeds I can get a good bike fit, with folk who have experience with touring, with alt bars, and female-bodied riders, who may or may not be in the market for another frame?

[rotavator]

Spa Cycles are touring bike specialists that are not far away in Harrogate. I test rode one of their Elan bikes and there was absolutely no pressure to buy. Also they are good for internet shopping, stocking some more unusual items, although their website could be improved. Occasionally they have sent me the wrong thing but they have dealt with the problem swiftly and satisfactorily after a telephone call.

However, I have no experience of their bike fitting abilities and don't know if they are female friendly....I am sure somebody else will come along soon to comment.

[thirdcrank]

This is from observation - not experience.

Chevin Cycles, Otley is in Leeds (though not what we Leeds Loiners think of as Leeds.)

They created a women's dedicated area long ago.

I see they do bike fitting although it says

Our fitting levels are currently undergoing a revamp. Stay tuned, more info to be released very soon. For questions and existing bookings please call us on 01423 568 222 and we will be happy to help

It also looks more orientated towards performance than touring but there's touring stuff in the shop

https://www.chevincycles.com/chevinperformance

This implies to me they do the fitting on their equipment, rather than sorting out an existing bike bought elsewhere

Included in every fit (excludes bike setup) is access to your detailed fit report, with optional photo and video analysis.

[slowster]

I am not aware of Spa offering a bike fitting service as such, and if they did I suspect that someone could get the same result using 531colin's guidance - https://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/up ... -2017a.pdf*

* Unfortunately the link is not working at the moment, which has happened before and usually takes a few days or so before whoever runs the website for the Wheel Easy club gets round to fixing it again. EDIT - I've just tried another browser and the link does open with that.

OP for your information, 531colin designed most of Spa's own brand frames, and is also a very experienced touring cyclist. His bike fit guidance is heavily based on the methodology of Steve Hogg. Hopefully he will see this thread at some point and post with advice. In the meantime, my advice is:

- get the saddle height and setback sorted before considering handlebar position and reach, and probably also before changing the saddle (if you are consdering doing so). This is one of the most important things in 531colin's guide, and in essence is about getting the saddle back far enough that you have very little weight on your hands ('balance point').

- I was going to suggest doing a search of this forum for similar threads, but on looking at the 'Women's cycling interests' board, it appears that there are no threads prior to 2020, which makes me suspect previous threads might have been lost/deleted (I'll ask admin to investigate).

- I do recall in one thread 531colin referred a poster to this article - http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/04/ ... ddles.html.

- with regard to alt-bars, the variation between them is potentially so large that I think very often the best resource is the internet and searches of people's experiences and recommendations of a particular bar/bar shape. What bars do you have?

[rareposter]

Cycle Sense in Tadcaster is well worth a look. It's about half way between Leeds and York.

https://www.cyclesense.co.uk/m73b0s724p ... ring-Bikes

They do a good range of touring bikes including custom builds.
Another vote for Spa Cycles in Harrogate as mentioned in a previous post as well.

Bike fitting is more tricky - most fitting is aimed at the performance end of the market, almost exclusively on road bikes although some systems will accommodate a degree of change around the bars. Most jigs though are built with drop bars in mind; you might have to find a system that looks at your position on your existing bike and works things out from there and that will probably require someone with some knowledge of physio to assess what your current issues are, if/how they're related to the bike you're on and what needs to be done to correct it all.

Good luck!

[PhilD28]

Not exactly close to Leeds but by far the best, John Dennis of Physiohaus in Jesmond Newcastle. John has probably trained almost every bike fitter in the UK.
He is a chartered physio too and checks people over carefully to take into account movement issues they may have and accommodates them during the fit.
He fits all disciplines from touring to the highest level road racers, including many international pro teams.

[HarryD]

Coach House Physio, Otley Road in Leeds (0113-275 0606)

Very highly rated by cyclists I know. They particularly recommend Louisa. More stuff on their website

Also another vote for Chevin Cycles from me but from experience of everything else they do

P.S. Possibly the reason most bike fits are sold on 'performance' is because a lot of 'performance' cyclists are quite happy to splash out big time on anything that may buy more speed and so that is where the market is

[st599_uk]

I had a try with this to get in the correct ball park. https://www.myvelofit.com/

Takes a bit of set up - needs the wheels level and camera perpendicular to the bike.

Seemed to work quite well.

[thirdcrank]

I am new to Leeds and the UK. I have a size 58 cm Blacksnow LHT and am having lots of issues getting comfortable on it. I don't know if it's me or the bike size or if can be fixed with fit. I couldn't get a fit done where I was living when I bought the bike (Northeast China 2020).

The bike is meaningless to me so I checked online and I thinks tis is the manufacturer's spec.

https://bikeinsights.com/bike-geometrie ... ase-58700c

In the old money, it looks as though that's a 25" frame. In spite of quite a long OP I couldn't begin to guess if it's the right size but I'd say that it's a big frame, particularly in these days of compact geometry

[531colin]

foot level on bottom pedal by 531colin, on Flickr

My advice would be to keep your money in your pocket until you are sure there is something you need to buy.
People have been riding bicycles for generations; for most of that time if you had said you were going to pay somebody to show you how to sit on a bike you would have been laughed at.
The only person who is going to be present each and every time you go for a ride is you.....so you need to know how to be comfortable. Whether you want to or not, you will end up riding on tarmac for most of the time. If you then want to go on an un-surfaced track, what happens? Do you get a different bike out of your pocket to ride? Do you phone the bike-fitter and ask what adjustments you should make to your riding position? Of course you don't.......you need to know how to be comfortable and balanced when riding on different surfaces.

I started riding with a club in the sixties. This was when the popularity of cycling was at its lowest ebb, but that had the advantage that everybody I rode with was an experienced rider, and they shared their knowledge and experience with the youngsters.
Now that there are more "new cyclists" than ever on the roads I wrote a piece on how to fit your own bike, and a few people have been kind enough to say it worked for them.

The shape of the handlebars is much less important than where they put your hands. When the above photo was taken, I was still using drop bars. Now my thumbs are arthritic and I can't brake from the hoods, I have had to forsake my drops and I now use these home-made bullbars...but my hands are in the same place, except I have lost the "drops" position.

IMG_5139 by 531colin, on Flickr

There are endless threads on the "Womens cycling interests" board about saddles; but no saddle will be comfortable unless its in the right place.
If you can post a video of you riding your bike we may be able to spot any obvious errors. (I think you have to put the video on you tube and link it, but I'm not the best at this new stuff!)

[PhilD28]

This is all good advice from Colin and I was sceptical about paying good money to check my bike fit as I joined the cycling club in 1964, raced for many years (2nd Cat), then took up expedition touring for the last 40 years.

But I went ahead anyway as I was having some knee problems. John Dennis spotted some hip and SI joint problems I had that were causing the problem on the bike making things uncomfortable for me.
He gave me a series of exercises to help with the problem and checked my riding position on the bike, resulting in a change of 10mm for and aft saddle position and a more central cleat location.

Within a few weeks of doing the exercises combined with a modified riding position my comfort was back to normal on the bike, no knee problem and I'm certain I was getting more power out of the position.

So I would say that in some cases a bike fit and assessment by a Chartered Physio/bike fitter can be very worthwhile, even for very experienced cyclists.

[Tams]

Thank you so much for all the suggestions. That is quite a lot of tabs open I have to (re)read now. I think I had not understood the importance of the saddle position for the balance point/getting weight out of my hands. I thought it was more to do with knee pain and power. I will get my bike onto the trainer and go through 531colin's guide in detail from scratch. Unfortunately it will have to wait until after Christmas as I have tweaked a disc bulge (the reason I haven't been at my computer the last 3 days) so can't lug the trainer about yet. When I do I will figure out how to put up a short video - thank you for the offer to spot my more obvious errors!

The Blacksnow LHT linked to is the one I am talking about. It is essentially a Surly Disc Trucker, hand made in China by some guys west of Shanghai. It is a large (and heavy) bike, but I am also 6 foot tall and a long legged version of 6 ft at that. By the rules of thumb I have seen about it is about right, and by Surley's guide I am in their range. Although the 56 would have been slightly better the actual difference seemed minimal and so I got a slightly shorter stem on the bike they did have. I was thinking I had made an error with that and may need a shorter stack to reach ratio, but, ahem, "There is always a “reason” people need a short reach..." Although I do have short arms for my height, I will follow the guide through and see what can be done first.

The handlebars I have are Koga Denham bars. I have never felt comfortable on drop bars, but then maybe I never had them set up properly. I felt these gave me some options but also are designed to fit Ortleib front bags.

I have some suspicions I am in need of a physio who has experience with cyclists, as much as changing my set up, so I will keep those recommendations in mind too.

I really enjoy cycling right up until the point I am in pain (not leg muscle pain, lower back and hand type or neck type depending) and want to take on some touring while we are in the UK (first up the Leeds to Liverpool) so I really appreciate everyone sharing their tips to help me sort it out.

[slowster]

With regard to the alt-bars, I think it is the large amount of backsweep that many of these bars have which can make it a bit more difficult to get the optimal position of those bars for an indvidual cyclist. I think that is because rotating bars with lots of backsweep even just slightly can significantly alter the articulation of the wrists as they grip the bars. Small changes in the wrist articulation and how/where the hand grips the bars can make a large difference in comfort. Similarly with a heavily swept bar varying the reach, e.g. with a longer or shorter stem, will, I suspect, have a bigger impact on wrist articulation. In contrast, with flat bars and drop bars varying the reach typically has less impact on the angle at which the hands grip the bars.

Jones bars have a 45 degree sweep, and Jeff Jones advises that they should be rotated back by approximately 15 degrees for optimum wrist grip angle. He also developed the bars for use ideally with his own frames, which have a short reach (and he typically advises shortish stems as well). There are many reports online of people not getting on with Jones bars until they follow his guidance about setting the bars up. The knowledge about how to best set up Jones bars rests with Jeff Jones, a very small number of retailers who sell his bikes and bars, and owners of Jones bikes and bars. The average bike fitter will probably not be much help with setting up Jones bars, and it's best for users to read the advice of Jeff Jones and the feedback and advice of other users in forums.

I suspect that you would do best to take a similar approach with the Koga Denham bars. They have 34 degrees of backsweep, which is less than Jones bars but is still a lot. So your best starting point is probably to read what Alee Denham has written about them: https://www.cyclingabout.com/koga-denham-bars/. I note that, for example, the advice to have the Denham bars no lower than the saddle is the same as what is generally advised for Jones bars.

Most importantly, only once you have determined your optimum saddle position should you begin to consider the position and angle of the bars (including the stem length), and you may need to do a bit of experimentation to determine what works best for you.

[531colin]

Having a partially prolapsed disc is a good reason to keep in mind the option of consulting a physiotherapist!
However, you have been cycling with your damaged disc , in various degrees of discomfort.
I don't see any reason not to have a go at getting more comfortable by yourself, as long as this doesn't involve any more discomfort than the riding which you have been doing. A physiotherapist might be more cautious!
I think things like wrist and shoulder pain are likely to be caused by supporting the weight of your torso on your hands and arms, instead of being in balance on the bike; these are things which are fairly easy to sort out yourself, and if you subsequently see a physio. it will give the physio. less to worry about.

I am fascinated by the concept that the designer of (say) a particular shape of handlebar feels that they should prescribe how somebody else should sit on their bike. In the picture I posted of me on a bike on a turbo, you can see I have a stem maybe 70mm, and quite a lot of forward reach from drops and brake levers. The bike with bullbars has a similar stem and a lot of forward reach from the bars.
Jeff Jones wants me to have backswept bars, a short stem, and a short top tube. He may find these things comfortable, but I don't. If I set up my bike with (say) an inch less reach than it has, then I find myself sitting right on the back of the saddle just to get a reach which is comfortable for me.

You want to use 3 of the biggest muscle groups in your body to propel your bike, glutes, hamstrings and quads. If you change your riding position, this can result in using a different part of the range of contraction of the muscles, or altering the load on particular muscle groups. For example, moving your saddle back will load your hamstrings and spare your quads.
I don't think this is a reason not to try different riding positions, but you need to be aware that your muscles may need to get used to the change.
Before you change anything, mark, measure and photograph everything, and write it down. Then you will know what you have done, and how to get back where you started.

[slowster]

I am fascinated by the concept that the designer of (say) a particular shape of handlebar feels that they should prescribe how somebody else should sit on their bike. In the picture I posted of me on a bike on a turbo, you can see I have a stem maybe 70mm, and quite a lot of forward reach from drops and brake levers. The bike with bullbars has a similar stem and a lot of forward reach from the bars.
Jeff Jones wants me to have backswept bars, a short stem, and a short top tube. He may find these things comfortable, but I don't. If I set up my bike with (say) an inch less reach than it has, then I find myself sitting right on the back of the saddle just to get a reach which is comfortable for me.

I've just measured the distances from the saddle nose to the following points on two bikes where the web between my thumb and forefinger grips the bars/rests on the brake hoods. Saddle position is the same on the two bikes.

- Utility MTB with 45 degree backswept bars with long grip section - 51cm-53cm depending how far inboard/outboard I grip.

- Spa 54cm Tourer with drop bars - 63cm to hoods, 52cm to top of the bars.

I think my MTB has a relatively short reach for an MTB (Effective Top Tube 565mm, 73 degree STA, Reach 368mm, 80mm stem). For example, according to the Genesis website your medium Longitude has a longer Effective Top Tube (610mm) and Reach (420mm).

So on the MTB I have a riding position which corresponds to riding on the tops of my tourer's drop bars, i.e. more upright (and the OP has stated that she wants to be more upright).