Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

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MrsHJ
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

PH wrote: 4 Jan 2022, 7:17pm
MrsHJ wrote: 4 Jan 2022, 5:49pm This thread reminds me why I liked flying Exeter to Amsterdam (on the sadly now defunct Flybe) rather than dealing with train & ferry logistics.
Flybe are due to restart operations sometime this year, having been bought out of administration by one of the shareholders.
Routes and timetables haven't yet been released, though they will now be based at Birmingham.
Oh, I’d totally missed that. Will keep an eye on developments.
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mjr
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by mjr »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Jan 2022, 5:44pm
MrsHJ wrote: 3 Jan 2022, 7:29pmHow easy/ difficult is it to get from the Harwich ferry to central London? What are the steps?
It's tricky, countermeasures as helpfully described above.
I missed that. What tricks? It is far simpler than travelling on from most airports, or the port at Dover, which involve longer port-to-station transfers, mostly worse on-train spaces and time restrictions, as well as possibly having to reassemble your bike.

I think the only easier link is Eurostar but that carries lots fewer bikes per day.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by Jdsk »

mjr wrote: 5 Jan 2022, 11:31am
Jdsk wrote: 4 Jan 2022, 5:44pm
MrsHJ wrote: 3 Jan 2022, 7:29pmHow easy/ difficult is it to get from the Harwich ferry to central London? What are the steps?
It's tricky, countermeasures as helpfully described above.
I missed that. What tricks? It is far simpler than travelling on from most airports, or the port at Dover, which involve longer port-to-station transfers, mostly worse on-train spaces and time restrictions, as well as possibly having to reassemble your bike.
We came back on the overnight ferry. We were trying to get back to Oxfordshire, but any London station would have been feasible.

The facilities at Harwich were poor. We had the option of riding to a connection on a road which we were told wasn't much fun. And we'd still have had to kill time to avoid the ban on rush hour trains into London.

All helpfully described upthread.

...

A car hire would have got us home much quicker. But only if executed with a modicum of competence

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mjr
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by mjr »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Jan 2022, 11:41am We came back on the overnight ferry. We were trying to get back to Oxfordshire, but any London station would have been feasible.

The facilities at Harwich were poor. We had the option of riding to a connection on a road which we were told wasn't much fun. And we'd still have had to kill time to avoid the ban on rush hour trains into London.
I agree Harwich port facilities are relatively poor (2 passenger boats a day compared to the 2 an hour at Dover will do that) but Parkeston and Harwich have most things you might want passing through. Getting anywhere doesn't require riding on a road which isn't fun (the A120?), and you can reserve to avoid the ban if you don't want to get breakfast in the towns. I'm sorry if someone misled you, but that doesn't make it tricky, and the same can happen with airports too: I expect someone out there would tell you to ride on the A23 to get from Gatwick to London...

Example: 0715 train to Manningtree, cross-platform change onto 0743 train to London that you've reserved, arrive 0842, 40 minutes ride Old Broad Street / Q11 / CS3 from Liverpool Street to Paddington, 09:50 train arriving Oxford 10:42. Total time 3h27.
A car hire would have got us home much quicker. But only if executed with a modicum of competence
OSRM suggests 2h45 driving time, so 3h05 with a break, so about 20 minutes quicker if (and a big if!) the A12, M25 and M40 are all free-flowing... and that 20 minutes can easily be eaten up by handover of a hire car. Maybe you could get to the handover point before 0715 but I don't remember having tons of time spare when we caught the 0745 to Cambridge (all that remains of the former North Country Continental, with a change there now needed to reach the East Midlands and at least two for further north).

Sadly, experience suggests "competence" and "car hire" coinciding is less likely than reliable train service. If anyone figures out how to hire cars easily, reliably and quickly, please let us know. I suspect some new electric-car-using disruptive car hire firm will put one or two of the current providers out of business in the future.

Heading northwest from Harwich, some friends I've toured with parked their car at the port to come home. I think it was theoretically possible to beat them home by train because the trains may mostly be slower than towards London (max 75mph instead of 100mph once past Stowmarket) and take a less direct route to the Wash, but cars are even slower still (mostly max 60mph)... but we were still on holiday, so we cycled about a bit anyway :)
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simonhill
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by simonhill »

I am thinking of Andalucia (Southern Spain) for 6 weeks in Feb & March. Just looked at Brittany Ferries and not able to book a bike on website, so put in a motorbike. A mere £203, plus £9 for a seat or £99 for a 4 berth cabin. Train to Portsmouth about £30. (Might be able to get a bit cheaper if early pre book, however I won't be booking anything till fairly near departure.) Train from Santander to Seville is £79 (£41 if I want to arrive at 23.40). So that's near enough £300. Travel time about 2½ days.

Ryanair from Stansted about £20, free bus that takes bikes to airport + £60 bike + £20 luggage = £100. Travel time about 6 hours.

I'll mull over which I prefer.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

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simonhill wrote: 5 Jan 2022, 5:15pm I am thinking of Andalucia (Southern Spain) for 6 weeks in Feb & March. Just looked at Brittany Ferries and not able to book a bike on website, so put in a motorbike. A mere £203, plus £9 for a seat or £99 for a 4 berth cabin. Train to Portsmouth about £30. (Might be able to get a bit cheaper if early pre book, however I won't be booking anything till fairly near departure.) Train from Santander to Seville is £79 (£41 if I want to arrive at 23.40). So that's near enough £300. Travel time about 2½ days.

Ryanair from Stansted about £20, free bus that takes bikes to airport + £60 bike + £20 luggage = £100. Travel time about 6 hours.

I'll mull over which I prefer.
Alternatively, as you seem OK with semi-dismantling the bike (as you're considering flying) then if covid and space permits, Eurostar to Paris, Intercité de Nuit to Latour de Carol, local train to Barcelona, then bag the bike and use AVEs to Seville. However, it's a bit of a faff to book (as the local train is a walk-up ticket, so you have to split it and the RailEurope website I used disliked that) but I think it could cost from £170 (+ more for a bed or cabin on the night train), connecting to leave London at 16:22 and arriving Seville 21:19 the following day.

Faster trains are available with a bagged bike (TGVs and more AVEs) but it's just too far to do without an overnight and at the moment, covid timetables make it look like two overnights (Paris and Madrid) may be needed. Cost from £271 + overnights, so not competitive unless you want to visit those cities IMO.

Just another option for you.
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bohrsatom
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by bohrsatom »

I'm pleased this thread exists, as this is something I've been thinking about over recent years in an attempt to reduce the number of flights I take. Also, flying with a bike is stressful and I'd be happy never to do it again.

Due to work/personal commitments I mostly do 1 or 2 week trips and so want to get to my destination, and home from my destination, within a day's travel. This can include an overnight as with most flights leaving at the crack of dawn I often stay in an airport hotel the night before.

Despite this, I've found that ferries/trains (or a combination of the two) are suitable only for getting to places reasonably close to the UK (France, BE, NL, some bits of Germany). Mostly this is because of the time involved taking ferries, cycles being banned from (most) high speed trains, and the complexity and risk of building routes with slower local trains which do take bikes. Not to mention the hassle of making all the connections with a heavy touring bike, up and down stairs, lifting it to get onto the train.... all that faff makes flying attractive again and at least you get to your destination quickly.

Last year I took my Brompton on Eurostar and the TGV to the south of France and it was so much simpler than with a regular bike. Not sure if I'd do a longer A-to-B trip on a Brompton though.

Hadn't considered Jdsk's suggestion of car hire before, perhaps that'll provide some extra connections compared to taking the train
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

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bohrsatom wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 6:09pm cycles being banned from (most) high speed trains,
When did that happen??? Bikes were allowed on AVEs, most TGVs, ICEs, Freccia* and Thalys, last I checked, but most require them bagged, but that is less than the dismantling needed for most planes. Folding bikes are easier, of course.
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MrsHJ
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

mjr wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 7:10pm
bohrsatom wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 6:09pm cycles being banned from (most) high speed trains,
When did that happen??? Bikes were allowed on AVEs, most TGVs, ICEs, Freccia* and Thalys, last I checked, but most require them bagged, but that is less than the dismantling needed for most planes. Folding bikes are easier, of course.
I think the problem that is highlighted is that it’s inconsistent (eg it’s ok to take complete bikes in some TGVs) and unpredictable ie someone will change the rail stock and a previously reliable route is now no bikes. But what you’ve said about breaking size down to bag them is a good point. It all requires lots of careful planning which can be a PITA. Looking on the Oui SNCF app for booking intact bikes in single TGV legs is quite helpful too.

Eurostar currently not looking good.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by simonhill »

mjr wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 7:10pm
bohrsatom wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 6:09pm cycles being banned from (most) high speed trains,
When did that happen??? Bikes were allowed on AVEs, most TGVs, ICEs, Freccia* and Thalys, last I checked, but most require them bagged, but that is less than the dismantling needed for most planes. Folding bikes are easier, of course.
What sort of bagging are you talking about?

I bagged my bike for last flight - front wheel and front mudguard off, pedals off, saddle and post off, nothing done with handlebars, just turned parallel to frame - then into bag. How much less to put it in a bag for a train? Admittedly I did use extra cardboard to pad it out.

Also, manhandling my bagged bike plus my panniers (in a laundry bag) is very difficult for me and I can only manage a very short distance without a trolley.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by bohrsatom »

mjr wrote: 6 Jan 2022, 7:10pm When did that happen???
I should have said "fully assembled bikes are (mostly) banned", but for intents and purposes that's the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Boarding/alighting trains and crossing station concourses with a 15kg touring bike on one shoulder and 15kg of panniers on the other isn't my idea of fun!

And on top of that is the risk you board the train to find the luggage area completely full and nowhere to leave the bike. On busy TGVs I've struggled to find to a good space for my Brompton, let alone a disassembled 57cm bike.

At least when flying you don't have to carry your bike and bags on and off the aircraft
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by simonhill »

Travelling on a bike is heaven, travelling with a bike is hell.

Edit: Maybe the title of this thread should be Max time/expense/physical difficulty. The physical difficulty is a major consideration for me and others.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

simonhill wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 9:53am Travelling on a bike is heaven, travelling with a bike is hell.

Edit: Maybe the title of this thread should be Max time/expense/physical difficulty. The physical difficulty is a major consideration for me and others.
+1 especially with a rotator cuff injury last summer and as a lot of us do travelling solo that ups the hassle level.

My conclusions are:
*minimise transfers eg taking 3 trains to get somewhere is going to up the likelihood of things going wrong, try to avoid tight connections. Paying extra for a reservation feels comfortable but if a connection is missed, it’s missed, it’s not the end of the world.
*leaving the bike intact for most travelling is easier. For big distances like a flight or long distance train I’d be ok with packing. NB I often pack it at the airport/train station to reduce lugging it around.
*taking a taxi or staying overnight somewhere to make a connection work or to reduce the amount of travelling on one day helps me
*people are amazing at helping- they’ll usually volunteer but don’t hesitate to ask whether it’s lugging bikes onto trains with skinny doors and steep steps or sorting out directions.
*familiarity helps- I’m a lot more comfortable about travel around places I’ve been before so I speak French (ish) and largely get the french system so I don’t find it as overwhelming as going to say Germany and figuring it out there- this is a good place to get information to increase information about places I’m not familiar with and I’m going to ask lots of questions about steps and ticket machines and where to leave the bikes to get over that gap in my knowledge (thanks all).
*for those with time I’d definitely use it and enjoy it on the longer distances- it’s fab. For me I need to be realistic job wise and sometimes that’s still going to mean airports but I will be using all means to make it simple eg valet parking/hotels before or after travel.
*I'm going to try to get better at doing some cycle touring in the uk.
*although I like touring solo I’m definitely less stressy when travelling with my bike with others.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by nirakaro »

MrsHJ wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 11:34am *I'm going to try to get better at doing some cycle touring in the uk.
Me too. I do find though, that a number of things – roads busier/drivers less considerate/hills steeper/weather less enticing/food less interesting/wine dearer/accommodation more expensive – that detract for me from UK touring. All minor items in themselves, but the cumulative effect is that I don't look forward to/back on my UK tours as positively as I do continental rides.
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by PH »

MrsHJ wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 11:34am *I'm going to try to get better at doing some cycle touring in the uk.
Maybe you could change that to "Closer to home", there must be large chunks on France that are more accessible from the South coast than much of the UK. That's the case even from the Midlands, Derby to Mallaig and Derby to Caen are comparable in both cost and time, likewise Calais or Pembroke.
I've not much to contribute to the larger topic, I have plenty of time, though usually limited funds, I also have a bike that folds to use any mode of transport. My planning starts with what time and money is available and where it can get me, rather than starting with a destination. I fly when I want, that turns out to average once a decade, but I've no illusion it makes any difference, if I do get on a plane I want to get off somewhere I couldn't have got to otherwise. For me that means outside Europe, but if for someone else it means closer to home, that's their choice.
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