Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
User avatar
CJ
Posts: 3413
Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 9:55pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by CJ »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:18pm But ferries are normally mainly funded by freight, so going anyway...
How is that different from saying: but the aeroplane is mainly funded by all the other passengers, so going anyway?

Even if you're sticking to that argument, it does not apply to the long ferry route to Spain. Routes of this length are operated by Cruise Ferries such as the Pont Aven, that carry very little freight and have the facilities to sleep, feed and entertain a whole shipload of passengers for the whole day and night they'll spend on board. Such vessels are a hybrid between a fully equipped cruise ship and a typical cross-channel 'ropax' ferry. This distinction is important because the carbon footprints differ by a whole order of magnitude! (According to this reference a foot passenger on short ferry crossing produces 18g CO2 per km, on a cruise ship: 251g per km!) We can guess that foot passenger with bike on cruise ferry must be somewhere between those two extremes, and guess is all we can do, because Brittany Ferries are very cagey about this!
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

CJ wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 7:00pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:18pm But ferries are normally mainly funded by freight, so going anyway...
How is that different from saying: but the aeroplane is mainly funded by all the other passengers, so going anyway?...
Because that is not allowing for the fact that ropax is routinely shifting bulk freight which would not normally go by air, which is giving an unfair advantage to air. If the passengers went away the freight would still be being shipped, almost certainly on some sort of roro. And I presume you arent suggesting islands cant receive their continuous supply of bulk freight :) . And that bulk shipped freight is often by ropax, eg Northern Ireland :) , the Republic of Ireland (though I think they have increased unattended freight trailers from mainland Europe), even mainland Uk is an island(s) with much ropax freight..

Shifting many Hgv sized trailer contents by air would seem likely to be highly energy inefficient but
I looked up the plymouth santander ferry and wiki just gives capacity in cars, which is interesting: I ve never come across a roro ferry that took no freight before... I may have to possibly concede that one then.... :)
But puzzlingly, BFs freight website list the spain routes, and they dont seem to be all freightonly ferrys: https://www.brittanyferriesfreight.co.u ... tes/spain/
Edit but their own site lists the cruise ferries as able to take trucks https://www.brittanyferriesfreight.co.u ... capacities

So I'm sticking to my arguments for actual ropax ferrys that do take a sizable amount of freight in addition to the ferry cake icing of passengers(which is after all the usual definition of ropax) until a fair comparison is done(and your Bbc link which I had seen before doesn't seem to do that .).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll-on/roll-off
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marine ... ships/amp/

Nb from the bbc link how can the eurostar high speed train be so much lower in co2 emission than domestic rail, I presume they are assuming nuclear fission based lectric power generation.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
CJ
Posts: 3413
Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 9:55pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by CJ »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 7:59pmI'm sticking to my arguments for actual ropax ferrys that do take a sizable amount of freight in addition to the ferry cake icing of passengers (which is after all the usual definition of ropax) until a fair comparison is done.
And I'm sticking to my argument that ferries mainly funded by freight, with only a "cake icing" of passengers, are irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Reason: you don't put your freight on a truck to have it sitting on a boat all the way there. So roll-on, roll-off freight is mostly confined to the shortest available, i.e. cross-channel (and Irish Sea) routes, which will comprise only a small part of one's journey to the start of a European tour. (Admittedly Brexit has increased freight traffic on longer routes from Ireland to the Continent, but that's a special case, relevant to only a small number of this forum's users.)

Ferries that play a major role in replacing a flight, by taking one most of the way to the start of a European tour, are by and large, cruise ferries, funded mainly by motoring passengers who want to have their car with them on holiday but don't want to drive it that far. On these ships: the small amount of freight (and cyclists) that may also be carried is the icing on the cake!

Brittany Ferries do nevertheless, also operate a more 'basic' ship on Spanish routes, a ship where freight may be a more significant part of the mix. But I wouldn't know about that because they don't let cyclists book on those ships - or not until the last minute, should they happen to have a few cabins left after filling the vehicle decks with freight and cars! Likewise the cross-channel routes that concentrate on freight will sometimes have room for some motorists also, but won't take cyclists due to their limited passenger capacity. They don't want to risk being full for people before they've sold all the vehicle deck space. It's probably something to do with the number of lifeboats.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Deleted due to duplication :oops:
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 19 Jan 2022, 7:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Well I did say I might have to concede the Spain route about freight :) so you won , but if the route is only viable due to car traffic , surely the odd 68kg cyclist, 15kg bike and 15kg luggage arent going to increase fuel consumption too much, freeloading on the back of the high energy motorists.
CJ wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 12:25pm... you don't put your freight on a truck to have it sitting on a boat all the way there. So roll-on, roll-off freight is mostly confined to the shortest available,
If it is unattended trailer freight then you are surely saving a lot of driver hours ?

I suppose a shorter long <= 8 hour day crossing such as belfast liverpool with driver must be economically ok, as the time can count as a driver rest period plus a bit of excess.

Nb some loosely connected rambling:
Belfast to liverpool is overnight or all day crossing but bigger brand new eflexer boats gave been bought to increase freight capacity (I thought I read somewhere they had hoped to then not need the additional, mainly unattended, freight only ferry due to that capacity increase but its still running it seems, but maybe due to current unusual trade patterns? ).

2 brand new modern brand new large ropaxs should be more efficient than 2 smaller older ones which need suplementing by an older freightonly ferry.
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 20 Jan 2022, 11:20am, edited 3 times in total.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1822
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

The point about ferries not be exactly environmentally friendly is well made, I think there are new ferries starting to come online that are greener but until bikes can go back on the train to Paris it’s a bit of Hobson’s choice at the moment.

On a personal note one of my favourite tours ever was the Plymouth- Roscoff- Santander - Plymouth loop.I think it was partly the satisfaction of not having to use any trains or planes. Just the ferry and bike power plus the delight of being able to be so close to home on departure/arrival. And of course the sheer pleasure of riding through Brittany, the west coast of France, the Pyrenees and various crazy Asturias climbs to get to the coast at Santander. Extremely memorable (this was pre Eurovelo 1)- I was so thrilled to save a tough day with some steep climbs in hot weather when I found the canal at Josselin.
Last edited by MrsHJ on 21 Jan 2022, 9:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1822
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

Out of interest what are the logistics for getting to Stansted airport by train.

It looks like the stansted express doesn’t take bikes except folders.

Stansted has zero appeal for me as it’s a PITA to get to from the West Country and it mostly flies Ryanair but occasionally there’s not a lot of choice.

For a return trip I think the car in long term parking would be best but I’d rather not engineer a route where I have to come back to stansted with Ryanair! TBH I’m happy to pay a bit extra and go to Heathrow with BA as they’re ok with bikes and the Heathrow express is ok with bikes but they don’t go to all of the regional airports especially in sunny places..
bohrsatom
Posts: 807
Joined: 20 May 2013, 4:36pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by bohrsatom »

MrsHJ wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 8:18pm Out of interest what are the logistics for getting to Stansted airport by train.

It looks like the stansted express doesn’t take bikes except folders.
It could be tough - the train route to Stansted airport is particularly cyclist unfriendly. My personal experience from a few years ago is that station staff are flexible even if trains don’t officially allow bikes, but of course you can’t rely on this.

I suspect your only guaranteed cycle-friendly route would be to take a non Stansted Express train to Stansted Mountfitchet then ride the final few miles to the airport, which rather sucks!
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by mjr »

bohrsatom wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 8:56pm
MrsHJ wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 8:18pm Out of interest what are the logistics for getting to Stansted airport by train.

It looks like the stansted express doesn’t take bikes except folders.
It could be tough - the train route to Stansted airport is particularly cyclist unfriendly. My personal experience from a few years ago is that station staff are flexible even if trains don’t officially allow bikes, but of course you can’t rely on this.

I suspect your only guaranteed cycle-friendly route would be to take a non Stansted Express train to Stansted Mountfitchet then ride the final few miles to the airport, which rather sucks!
Bizarrely, the new London-Stansted trains have space for up to 18 bikes, but bikes remain officially banned from it. Norwich-Cambridge-Stansted take 6 unbooked. Birmingham-Cambridge-Stansted trains take 4, some bookable.

The cycling route from Stansted Mountfitchet to the airport is 5 miles, but it's only 3 and a bit from Elsenham, funnily enough.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1822
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

Thanks both. Sounds like a need for an update to that policy.

At this juncture if I was tempted (and it’s only maybe)I reckon I’d stump up the small amount extra for British airways LHR and go business with 2 free bags including the bike (currently £75 back from Venice on a Saturday afternoon) and figure out a train in Italy so I could return to Heathrow rather than flying from trieste into stansted with Ryanair.
simonhill
Posts: 5226
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by simonhill »

£75 Business is excellent value. Ryanair charge €60 just for the bike. Then add seat and possible luggage.

Having said that I flew home from Portugal on Ryanair and they were very good. Admittedly my bike was in in a bespoke soft bike bag.

Jet2 are cheaper for bikes.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
CJ
Posts: 3413
Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 9:55pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by CJ »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 16 Feb 2022, 12:29pm Gas powered spain ferry:
https://www.niferry.co.uk/introducing ... ries/?amp
That'll be nice, if they let cyclists on the Salamanca. As green travellers we would naturally prefer to burn clean-ish LPG than smelly old oil. But it doesn't look likely they will.

Why's that? What difference can a few cyclists make? Our bikes fit into un-used corners of the vehicle decks and we are just as likely to buy food and drink on board - aren't we? Or are we perceived as what the travel trade impolitely calls 'rucsack tourists': cheapskates who bring their own beer & sandwhiches and sleep on the seats?

Whatever: the key factor is the shape of the ship, specifically the balance of provision between vehicles and passengers. A passenger ship is licensed and insured to carry no more than a certain number of passengers. And a roll-on, roll-off ferry only has so much vehicle deck space. The ferry operator ideally wants to fill both, but first and foremost he wants to fill the vehicle decks. That's because when they are full the ship can still take any further foot passengers who turn up - or cyclists, because their bikes fill the odd-shaped corners where motor vehicles will not go. If, on the other hand, the ship is full for passengers first, any remaining vehicle space becomes unsaleable, because every car or truck comes with at least one driver. The cost of lost sales in turning away vehicles the ship might easily have carried, simply cannot be allowed to happen!

So that is why some ferries will not accept bookings from cyclists - or foot passengers. Or not accept them until a few weeks or days before the ship sails, when the operator can be certain that their presence on board will not prevent the sale of any vehicle space that may remain unsold.

It is interesting to compare the relative passenger and vehicle capacities of ships operated by Brittany Ferries between UK and Spain. Vehicle deck capacity is given either in area (sqm) or lane metres, or number of cars and/or lorries. To convert from one to the other it can be assumed that the vehicle lanes average 2m wide and that a car takes up 6m, a lorry 18m. So lane.m = area÷2 and cars = lane.m÷6. I've calculated how many people you would need in each car to fill the passenger capacity of each ship (without any cyclists), assuming the ship is full of cars.

Ship name -| People | Lane.m | Cars | People per Car
Pont Aven --|-- 2415 -|- 3500 --|- 600 | 4
Etretat ------|---- 375 -|- 1200 --|- 200 | 2
Galicia ------|-- 1680 -|-----------|- 550 | 3
Salamanca |-- 1015 -|- 2705 --|- 450 | 2

It is easy to see why Brittany Ferries are happy to take bookings from cyclists (and coachloads of foot passengers) on their Pont Aven 'cruise ferry'. It's possible but extremely improbable that every car will contain 4 people! And that's only if they're all cars. Every campervan, car with trailer, white van or lorry, reduces the number of passengers per sqm of vehicle deck. Only if they also get a few coachloads, motor and pedal cyclists, will they also fill the passenger decks, or perish the thought: lifeboats!

Contrast the Etretat: that until 2021 provided an 'economy' route to Spain. This needs only 2 people per car to fill with passengers - a very achievable average. No wonder they didn't want cyclists booking on that one, except perhaps sometimes, at the last minute, on less popular dates, or after a lot of trucks had booked.

I haven't heard how easy it will be for cyclists to book ahead on the Galicia's routes. At 3 people per car it's halfway between the previous two extremes, so maybe. The Salamanca however, looks like nothing other than a much bigger version of the Etretat, same measly 2 per car. We needn't expect any favours.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

cj wrote:....
Interesting, I had presumed the modern reluctance of some routes to take cyclists or foot passengers was always due to the distance between passenger terminal and ship and modern elf and safety worries, not wishing cyclists to be threading their way through docks to the ship amongst parked unattended trailers, moving hgv-tractor units etc, and wishing to avoid the cost of loading such passengers via a bus etc (presumably letting cyclists scrounge a lift with a motor vehicle would also be beyond the modern elf&safety pale) :

The previous Visentini flexbow belfast-liverpool ferries only had foot passenger entry via car deck , so Stena ran(and still do) a minibus to the ship for humans and any bikes go on a trailer, behind a luggage trailer and at the birkenhead end they run/hire a double decker to the terminal then on to birkenhead hamilton square station but the dublin ferries of same/ sister kind dont bother.. presumably because of cost/hassle. In
normal times belfastliverpool foot passengers get a 10 pound day sailing offer, presumably because they eat drink etc. On the Stena Belfast Cairnryan ferries the passenger terminal is near the ship so cyclists are walked onto car deck by an official in the omnipresent yellow bib then may cycle along the car deck to a room for bikes....However, cyclists are not taken on the middle of night sailings presumably due to elf and safety worries again.

Perhaps the UK could simply require non-freightonly ropax ferries to take foot passengers and cyclists . Buses might not be needed, at keast for cyclists.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
Post Reply