Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

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CJ
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by CJ »

simonhill wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 9:53am Travelling on a bike is heaven, travelling with a bike is hell. Maybe the title of this thread should be Max time/expense/physical difficulty. The physical difficulty is a major consideration for me and others.
+1. I think it's significant that most of the respondents to this thread are really eager to travel by train - so long as the bike remains a bike - but do not even consider the train if that involves disabling and bagging the bike. This applies even to those (like me) who are happy to spend a great deal of of time and trouble dismantling and packing their bike so carefully that it'll (usually) survive airport baggage handling unscathed!

Q: Why this apparent double standard? Why is a lot of very careful dismantling okay to go on a plane, but any dismantling at all (less careful because one will handle the bike oneself) NOT okay by train?

A1: Because a 'plane is so much quicker, making all the time one needs for dismantling and reassembly. And...
A2: More importantly: the 'plane probably goes direct to a good starting point for one's touring holiday. And even if there is a change, one's bike and other luggage will be handled by the airport.

Travel by train, on the other hand, usually involves changes of train. A bagged bike plus a number of panniers adds up to an awfully difficult burden to shift between platforms, given that porters are a thing of the past and the trolleys meant to replace them are often just as absent. Add the fact that for most Brits any continental rail journey involves not just a change of platforms but a change of Paris termini (last time I was at Gare du Nord the trolleys - so I was told - had all been stolen!) and those difficulties become virtual impossiblilities for all but the young and strong of back and arm!

If the bike remains a bike however, it ceases to be an additional awkward burden, but remains one's own perfect personal luggage trolley, purpose-made for trundling panniers etc from platform to platform. And should one's connection leave from a different station, there is no need to interpret a foreign metro system, one may simply get on and ride across the city centre!

Another thing, A3 if you like. Although one may not need to be so careful how one bags a bike if handling it oneself, the size limits on bagged bikes imposed by train operators are often much smaller than those of most airlines. On Spanish long-distance services for example, one is permitted three items of hand luggage, the largest of which cannot exceed 85x55x35cm and the total of which cannot add up to more than 25kg in weight or 290cm in size (calculated by summing the three dimensions of every item). A bagged bicycle is allowed to be one of those items, subject only to the restriction that its three dimensions do not add up to more than 180cm. I wrote 'only', but to save you doing the maths, I can tell you that one would have to dismantle a regular touring bicycle almost completely, probably filling all of the three bag quota with bicycle parts before even thinking about one's panniers!
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nirakaro
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by nirakaro »

Exactly. A few years ago I did Leeds-Naples by train, with a bagged bike over my shoulder, and panniers and their contents in a use-once-and-throw-away backpack. Five trains, change stations in London, taxi between stations in Paris, metro between stations in Turin. It worked, but stressful or what? And a day to recover when I got there. Wouldn't do it again.
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mjr
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by mjr »

CJ wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 4:16pm On Spanish long-distance services for example, one is permitted three items of hand luggage, the largest of which cannot exceed 85x55x35cm
That example seems out of date. I read on Seat 61 that Spanish long-distance fast trains relaxed the size limit to 120cm x 90cm x 40cm in 2015, same as TGV and Eurostar (pre-covid) and it's worth noting bikes are allowed as bikes on most Media-Distancia trains, some of which travel quite long routes despite the name.

The key, as ever for holiday travel IMO, is to minimise changes and allow enough time for them. The most difficult step remains getting out of the UK, especially with Eurostar being silly.
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CJ
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Re: Max time/expense to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by CJ »

mjr wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 5:53pm
CJ wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 4:16pm On Spanish long-distance services for example, one is permitted three items of hand luggage, the largest of which cannot exceed 85x55x35cm
That example seems out of date. I read on Seat 61 that Spanish long-distance fast trains relaxed the size limit to 120cm x 90cm x 40cm in 2015, same as TGV and Eurostar (pre-covid) ...
Thanks, I accept the correction, my information was out of date. As confirmed by this page, if you pay an extra fee for 'Equipaje Especial', you can take a bagged bicycle up to the same size limit as TGV, Eurostar and certain other high-speed European trains will carry (usually for free). My point nevertheless stands, because that size limit is considerably smaller than most airlines will accept for a bagged or boxed bike.

The bag in which I fly my bike measures 150×100×40cm and I would not want it any smaller because that allows me to leave the rear wheel, carrier and mudguard in place. To cram my touring bike into a bag only 120cm long, I would have to dismantle those parts also (and alter the wiring so I can disconnect the rear dynamo lamp) which would then jostle around inside the bag with the already detached front wheel, mudguard and handlebars. Plus the bike would now rest upon it's chainwheel, that would punch oily holes in the bottom of the bag (since the chain is never going to stay on it now) and probably bend its teeth on the steps as I struggle to drag it on and off trains. No way José!
mjr wrote: 7 Jan 2022, 5:53pm...and it's worth noting bikes are allowed as bikes on most Media-Distancia trains, some of which travel quite long routes despite the name.
Is it, really? It's my impression that very few old rolling stock 'Media Distancia' services remain, as they are being replaced by new 'Avant' trainsets - that are subject to the same luggage restrictions as 'AVE'.

Just about the only Spanish trains you can easily take (a small number of) bicycles on - as bicycles - are the 'Cercanías'. These are local trains, serving the surrounding commuter areas of large cities. In some cases you may be able to get a train out of one city that connects with another into the next place, but that's a very slow and inconvenient way to go far.

As a Britsh cycle-tourist who learnt Spanish at school and about climate change very soon after (didn't get a car until I was 50, but went everywhere by bike and train until it became too limiting, in 2005), it pains me greatly that flying is now the only practical way of exploring my favourite country in my favourite way - apart from the ferry to Santander.
Chris Juden
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glucas
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by glucas »

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest as I plan on doing Eurovelo 15, starting from Andermatt, this summer.

My preferred route in terms of time would be to box the bike and fly to Geneva - and then get a train from there. I believe if I took an early morning flight I would be able to start the tour the next day. I live within easy reach of Stansted/Luton/Heathrow/Gatwick.

Aside from the car hire or train options discussed on here, I looked into sending the bike by box and picking it up at the destination. I wasn't sure about doing this as somebody would need to sign for it. Would be viable if you were staying at a hotel maybe and they agreed to it. Has anybody done this?
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by Jdsk »

glucas wrote: 8 Jan 2022, 1:13pm Aside from the car hire or train options discussed on here, I looked into sending the bike by box and picking it up at the destination. I wasn't sure about doing this as somebody would need to sign for it. Would be viable if you were staying at a hotel maybe and they agreed to it. Has anybody done this?
Haven't done it.

We spent our night in Andermatt at Hotel Badus, and they run bike hire and have a garage.
https://hotelbadus.ch/en/home-2/

How about poste restante?
https://www.post.ch/en/receiving-mail/r ... nsignments

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glucas
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by glucas »

Thanks Jonathan for the recommendation of the hotel.

From google I saw there were courier companies that provided boxes and will courier bikes - so that side of it is not so much an issue maybe.
simonhill
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by simonhill »

I have yet to see a courier to Europe that is under £100 for a boxed bike, often much more. You then may have problems with tariffs as detailed in another post.
glucas
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by glucas »

Ahh, ok. Thanks for the heads up. That is at least double what an airline will charge I guess. Will have to brave taking it to the airport!
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MrsHJ
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

glucas wrote: 8 Jan 2022, 1:47pm Ahh, ok. Thanks for the heads up. That is at least double what an airline will charge I guess. Will have to brave taking it to the airport!
Like others here I have done the Geneva flight and then train. Definitely doable. Thoughts about bikes and airports- if you’re driving there consider carefully where you’ll be leaving the car. I can’t manage a packed bike on an airport bus with my luggage (and they will literally call the bomb squad if you try to transport your luggage in 2 loads from the car to the bus because of unattended baggage rules). So I usually use the valet parking or last time at Bristol I used the multi storey and got a baggage trolley- the valet parking is easier and usually has good access to trolleys. If I take a train to the airport eg to Heathrow then it travels complete and I allow extra time to pack the bike somewhere close to check in.

I caught a Geneva flight and stayed overnight close to the airport (good value hotel about 500m from Palexpo). Anyway there is a train station underneath the airport. Don’t forget to allow time to put the bike back together- I did it in the baggage hall by the oversized conveyer (far end from where you walk in) which is where your bike will arrive. There’s supposed to be somewhere at the airport with a pump and bike station but I’ve not yet found it after a few trips there. Note for myself for future ref: swissport sell bike boxes at Geneva airport and it might be required to use them.

You’ll get a interegional train to Brig and the glacier express to Andermatt-presumably you’ll stay overnight there?. Then there’s a little train for the final leg from Andermatt to the start if you don’t want to begin with a climb. Swiss railways (SBB) are good with the bikes- use the app for e tickets and also buy a day pass for the bike. On the routes mentioned I didn’t need a bike reservation when I did it last summer as you only need a reservation for the inter city trains I think but obviously do check.

The train starts at the airport and was there a good half hour before it left so lots of time for loading up (it was an old fashioned train with steps so bags off before loading the bike). The link to the glacier express in Brig is easy- it’s just outside the station and the routes are designed for you to join there. It was busier with weekenders doing walking and cycling but there was enough space for people and bikes- it was a modern train so I just walked the loaded bike on and then took the baggage off and put it in the holder.

Please feel free to ask any questions. Please note though that I haven’t been to andermatt yet- I got off at the station before (Oberwald) and did the Rhône route which goes down the other side of the pass.
Last edited by MrsHJ on 8 Jan 2022, 11:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
glucas
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by glucas »

Thanks MrsHJ, that's all really useful information. In actual fact my wife will probably drop me off at Heathrow, as after all, she can get rid of me for a couple of weeks :D .So I hope there would be no complications getting from the drop off zone into the airport!

Thanks very much for the detailed heads up regarding Geneva airport and getting to Brig/Andermatt. I will save this information and use it. I have heard good things about Swiss trains and bikes, so that's one concern chalked off. My only real concern is the process of dismantling/boxing and then reassembling the bike. I will have to learn how to take the pedals off and the handlebars. Will do a couple of practice runs.
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MrsHJ
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

glucas wrote: 8 Jan 2022, 3:07pm Thanks MrsHJ, that's all really useful information. In actual fact my wife will probably drop me off at Heathrow, as after all, she can get rid of me for a couple of weeks :D .So I hope there would be no complications getting from the drop off zone into the airport!

Thanks very much for the detailed heads up regarding Geneva airport and getting to Brig/Andermatt. I will save this information and use it. I have heard good things about Swiss trains and bikes, so that's one concern chalked off. My only real concern is the process of dismantling/boxing and then reassembling the bike. I will have to learn how to take the pedals off and the handlebars. Will do a couple of practice runs.
No worries- it’s the sort of info I would want to know. I reckon I’ve already used enough brownie points abandoning MrHJ with the teens so I go the the airport myself unless it’s to Exeter or the Plymouth ferry port. If I was going from Heathrow I might well go BA as they’re pretty good with bikes. If she’s up for it I’d use the short term parking and ask her to help you get to check in. I have a collapsible bag the panniers etc go in and that combined with the bike on a trolley is a bit unwieldy.

If you want to try the train I think it’s ferry port- Paris (this may be slow if Eurostar isn’t carrying bikes as it looks as though no bikes on TGVs from Caen or Calais- so will be local TER trains) - Strasbourg (TGV- reserve)-Basel ([TER)- local trains for andermatt but it’s a bit of a trek. NB I read in freewheeling France that the TER HGF trains are a problem too and they seem to use them a lot from Calais which means Caen or maybe Cherbourg for more easterly sailings. Not easy is it!

For the pedals I have an oversize tool- pretty sure it’s a park tools one CCW5.
I let the tyres down- no point arguing about it. For the handlebars I twist them so they are still attached but parallel to the bike (ie it’s long and thin). I put the seat and handlebars at the same height. The only thing they’re really interested in is weight but you shouldn’t have bits sticking out that could get it stuck in baggage rollers. I’m sure there are threads here about how to pack it- I like to use a spacer for the front forts. Everything else gets well bubble wrapped. Then the whole lot goes in a mattress type bag (the ctc wiggle one) and the front wheel is taped to the frame and everything is thoroughly sealed with parcel tape. Obviously the bag v bike box debate has been covered extensively elsewhere- this is really my only option if I’m flying back from another airport and might not be able to get a box.
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/ctc-cycling-uk ... lsrc=aw.ds
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Park-Tool-CCW- ... C86&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Skypak-90L-Fol ... B06ZZBRCZT
Last edited by MrsHJ on 8 Jan 2022, 10:22pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tiggertoo
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by Tiggertoo »

"If I was going from Heathrow I might well go BA as they’re pretty good with bikes. "

Could you explain, please. I am currently divided between BA (lousy planes on my last flight - falling apart) and United (horrible service) into Heathrow for my flight this summer.

My bike will be boxed - Bike Pro box measures 46"x32"x11" which will no doubt require a surcharge.

Thanks.
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MrsHJ
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by MrsHJ »

BA carry bikes as standard. They are actually part of your luggage allowance. I’m not organised enough to reduce my baggage to just a bike and a carry on so I have to buy an extra bag anyway but if I were a super minimal traveller then the bike counts as my hold luggage.

I found the American Airlines (the big ones, maybe the cut price carriers are different) eye waterlingly expensive for a transatlantic flight the last time I looked which would have been 2019 when I flew into DC and out from Austin TX. I used BA due to the cost as much as anything else but I also find they’re ok for customer service/if stuff goes wrong they usually will fix it. Bearing in mind I’m comparing to the likes of Ryan air (although I quite like easy jet) I’m talking a fairly low bar.

Let me find the links. If American are now affordable with bikes it will increase my future cycle trip options.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... -equipment
https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-libr ... /bikes-air

maybe the ctc prices outlined in the second link are now out of date or I haven’t fully understood the rules?
Tiggertoo
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Re: Max time/expense/difficulty to get to the start of a European tour?

Post by Tiggertoo »

For BA:
Your bike can be in a heavy-duty polythene bike bag, padded case or hard shell up to 175 x 37.5 x 25.5in. If it’s a non-rigid bag, please make sure the handlebars are fixed sideways and the pedals removed or fixed inwards. It’s also best to reduce tyre pressures.

I'll check with United and add to this post.

Done: United costs 200 pounds, and BA free, so BA wins.

It's also a very simple procedure to remove the pedals using the Park tool designed for the purpose. I would caution anyone against using a regular spanner for the job.
Last edited by Tiggertoo on 8 Jan 2022, 6:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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