Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20697
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by Vorpal »

mattheus wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 1:54pm
Vorpal wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 12:42pm I agree that CyclingMikey goes over the top, directing traffic.

In older legislation, the power to stop and direct traffic was specifically a power granted to the police. The Traffic Management Act 2004 confers this power instead on a "traffic officer" and makes parallel changes to the Road Traffic Act 1988.

This power is granted through the Community Safety Accreditation Scheme, to DVSA, lollipop people, road race marshalls, local authorities, traffic management companies and others.

So, in theory, he could be granted to the power to direct traffic, but he does not currently have the legal power to do this.
Drivers using the wrong side of the road to save time, putting pedestrians and cyclists in danger
-vs
drivers being asked to stop by road race marshalls.

TOTALLY different situations! You conflating them is very unhelpful, Vorpal.
The situations are totally different. And I don't think that I have conflated them. The power to stop and direct traffic, however, is conferred in law.

For what it's worth, I support what he is doing. I think that he does improve safety at this junction, and (as we have seen) at some risk to himself. If nothing else, his effort makes an important statement on the state of road safety in the UK.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
mattheus
Posts: 5031
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by mattheus »

Vorpal wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 2:24pm The situations are totally different. And I don't think that I have conflated them. The power to stop and direct traffic, however, is conferred in law.
I give up !!! :P
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by thirdcrank »

The power to direct traffic is conferred by law but it is quite strictly restricted. Most obviously the police power under s 35 RTA 1988 includes
in the execution of his duty.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/35

I cannot see that obliging somebody to stop and reverse so they can be filmed and then inconvenienced by reversing comes anywhere close to that. My point about strict restriction of the power is illustrated in the second part of s35 dealing with traffic surveys. BITD the ministry of transport used to pay "special duty" rates for a PC to stop and direct drivers into the survey lanes. A driver who objected to being stopped and delayed in this way took the line that the PC was not acting in the execution of his duty and the law was amended to include it, subject to restrictions. (IIRC the driver concerned was a barrister.)

This is from an old post about the power of the police to direct a driver to reverse.
I've probably mentioned on here that one of the precedents for my interpretation of the law on this was made by Lord Denning, Master of the Rolls (therefore a civil case.) Following a terrorist bombing in a pub in Birmingham in the 1970's a constable directed the driver of a motor car to reverse along a one-way street to make way for an emergency ambulance. The driver refused and was arrested. His case was that the police had no power to direct him to reverse 'illegally.' Lord Denning told him not to be so silly (but being the Master of the Rolls he made it sound a lot more exciting.)
viewtopic.php?p=212963#p212963
qwerty360
Posts: 15
Joined: 2 Jun 2020, 4:34pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by qwerty360 »

While I can accept arguments he shouldn't jump out and should just report, I would then argue that:
  1. Police should have very limited discretion not to prosecute statutory offences with video evidence; I.e. he has reported an absolute, undefendable offence that should be SJPN (so relatively cheap to prosecute). Basically should be similar to speed camera offence.
  2. Courts should be able to accept private video submission without witnesses being required to attend (i.e. judge/magistrate can rule that cross-examination isn't useful)
  3. Penalties should be MUCH higher. And unlimited as proportion of income/assets. Because otherwise the wealthy will just treat it as a tax. (see Swiss with €500k+ speeding fines (300 days income for 200+kph on 30kph road I believe)
  4. Disputing them in court should be possible, but against points/bans. I.e. if you go to court without any actual defence on the hope of witness not turning up, or that the court system wont process it fast enough then you should be risking a ban as clearly you aren't going to learn and drive safely in future.
  5. Any incident near to a statutory driving offence (within say 5-10 min/1km) should automatically be 50+% driver liability. I.e. any liability
    from fault investigation is adjusted afterwards to only cover 50% of liabilities with criminal driver at fault for the rest no matter what (should be the same for other offences. E.g. driving on phone, driving while disqualified, driving without valid licence). Would also argue that offences like this should risk court ruling that in all future civil incidents you are presumed liable because of historic driving.
  6. A lot more offences (like this one) should have potential significant keeper liability for fines at least
Bonefishblues
Posts: 10978
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by Bonefishblues »

1. Police don't prosecute.
2. It's a fundamental part of the judicial process. In these days of deep fakes I am glad it's inconceivable it would happen.
3. It's the case that the single most influential determinant of offending is the likelihood of detection. Penalties make little to no difference.
4. That would be a deterrent to individuals seeking justice. Very unwise IMHO.
5. I don't understand the point I'm afraid, but it appears rather convoluted and I wonder at its practicality.
6. I'm not sure how that would be a material improvement, unless as suggested earlier thread, there is a better system of cameras to detect this type of offence - at that point I'm sure that the registered keeper would be responsible for reporting who the driver was.
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by reohn2 »

I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.

Don't get me wrong I see what Mickey and others are trying to achieve,I'm just telling it like it is and how it's perceived by joe public.

In the case of Mikey I think he's sooner or later he may come up against some red misted nutter who may just feel justified enough to floor it and run him over*.
He'd,IMO,best serve others and himself by continuing to film bad,illegal,dangerous driving accurately and reporting it to the police.


*I've come across such lunatics when doing no more wrong than just being on the road on a bicycle minding my own business,including having to defend myself with my bike,being deliberately forced off the road and in one case a threat to kill me with the vehicle they were driving.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mattheus
Posts: 5031
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.

Don't get me wrong I see what Mickey and
Who is MIckey?

I haven't read your whole post, but don't you think it's good that someone is standing up to those who "do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions."

I think it's good. Well done Mike van Erp!
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5458
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by pjclinch »

reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.
What does van Erp do to "inconvenience people's daily lives"? He takes pictures of law-breakers as he goes about his business and reports them to the police for having broken the law.
If you can't have a "convenient daily life" without breaking the law (a law which is there to protect people from injury) then there's something seriously wrong.
reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm He'd,IMO,best serve others and himself by continuing to film bad,illegal,dangerous driving accurately and reporting it to the police.
That's what he does. This is only an "inconvenience (to) people's daily lives" if their daily lives feature habitual law breaking.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by pwa »

I don't feel any sympathy for folk who drive with a phone in hand, or who deliberately drive the wrong way on a one way lane, so seeing them get challenged is not a worry to me. But I worry that Mikey is devoting so much of his attention to this, and that his mental wellbeing is at risk. Does he go to sleep thinking about traffic infringements? Is it what he thinks about over his cornflakes first thing in the morning? Does his mission affect his personal relationships? That's what bothers me about this.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5458
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by pjclinch »

pwa wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 11:27am I don't feel any sympathy for folk who drive with a phone in hand, or who deliberately drive the wrong way on a one way lane, so seeing them get challenged is not a worry to me. But I worry that Mikey is devoting so much of his attention to this, and that his mental wellbeing is at risk. Does he go to sleep thinking about traffic infringements? Is it what he thinks about over his cornflakes first thing in the morning? Does his mission affect his personal relationships? That's what bothers me about this.
The real issue that should be bothering all of us is that dangerous idiots in potential killing machines have become so accustomed to behaving illegally and getting away with it, and in many cases not even having the thought occur that they're doing anything wrong, that it's considered worrying by anyone decent that reporting such behaviour is going on.

Casual motoring crime, putting people's lives in danger, is so common that all you have to do to find it happening in London is ride around and open your eyes. It's not a mission to find illegal behaviour, it's seeing it in front of yourself all the time.

I can't speak for Mike van Erp, but what he worries about at night is his concern and not really anyone else's outside of his immediate circle. What bothers me far more is that illegal potentially lethal actions of drivers have become so completely normalised. Something needs to be done about that. It's not about "inconvenience", or "moral high ground", it's about criminal, potentially fatal behaviour that has become normalised. It's not about people who report crime, it's about the criminals that commit it.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by pwa »

pjclinch wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 12:45pm
pwa wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 11:27am I don't feel any sympathy for folk who drive with a phone in hand, or who deliberately drive the wrong way on a one way lane, so seeing them get challenged is not a worry to me. But I worry that Mikey is devoting so much of his attention to this, and that his mental wellbeing is at risk. Does he go to sleep thinking about traffic infringements? Is it what he thinks about over his cornflakes first thing in the morning? Does his mission affect his personal relationships? That's what bothers me about this.
The real issue that should be bothering all of us is that dangerous idiots in potential killing machines have become so accustomed to behaving illegally and getting away with it, and in many cases not even having the thought occur that they're doing anything wrong, that it's considered worrying by anyone decent that reporting such behaviour is going on.

Casual motoring crime, putting people's lives in danger, is so common that all you have to do to find it happening in London is ride around and open your eyes. It's not a mission to find illegal behaviour, it's seeing it in front of yourself all the time.

I can't speak for Mike van Erp, but what he worries about at night is his concern and not really anyone else's outside of his immediate circle. What bothers me far more is that illegal potentially lethal actions of drivers have become so completely normalised. Something needs to be done about that. It's not about "inconvenience", or "moral high ground", it's about criminal, potentially fatal behaviour that has become normalised. It's not about people who report crime, it's about the criminals that commit it.

Pete.
His welfare is nobody else's business? I reject that notion.

I agree that misconduct that puts others at risk, such as holding a phone whilst driving, is something that deserves having a light shone on it.
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 9:39am
reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.

Don't get me wrong I see what Mickey and
Who is MIckey?

I haven't read your whole post, but don't you think it's good that someone is standing up to those who "do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions."

I think it's good. Well done Mike van Erp!
Sorry my bad,it's Mikey innit or Mike van Erp to give him is full name.
The problem with placing yourself in front of idiots in cars is,sooner or later you'll come across a real head the ball who'll think they have the right to run over you.I thought I made that clear in my post.
If not is it any clearer for you now?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by reohn2 »

pjclinch wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 10:46am
reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.
What does van Erp do to "inconvenience people's daily lives"? He takes pictures of law-breakers as he goes about his business and reports them to the police for having broken the law.
If you can't have a "convenient daily life" without breaking the law (a law which is there to protect people from injury) then there's something seriously wrong.
reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm He'd,IMO,best serve others and himself by continuing to film bad,illegal,dangerous driving accurately and reporting it to the police.
That's what he does. This is only an "inconvenience (to) people's daily lives" if their daily lives feature habitual law breaking.

Pete.
I thought I made myself clear in the post,I agree with his filming and reporting law breaking,if it's unclear see my reply to Mattheus
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 11:27am I don't feel any sympathy for folk who drive with a phone in hand, or who deliberately drive the wrong way on a one way lane, so seeing them get challenged is not a worry to me. But I worry that Mikey is devoting so much of his attention to this, and that his mental wellbeing is at risk. Does he go to sleep thinking about traffic infringements? Is it what he thinks about over his cornflakes first thing in the morning? Does his mission affect his personal relationships? That's what bothers me about this.
I think that's upto Mikey,my concern is more for his physical wellbeing in standing front of an entitled nutter in 2 tonnes of motor vehicle.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mattheus
Posts: 5031
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 3:09pm
mattheus wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 9:39am
reohn2 wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 1:17pm I've not read the whole thread but here's my opinion.
IMO he,like the recent protesters who glue themselves to the road,throw soup over a Van Gough painting,climb and hang from bridges,exibit a form of moral high ground,though their actions serve only to annoy and irritate because they inconvenience people's daily lives in a world of convenience and where the norm for some is to do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions.

Don't get me wrong I see what Mickey and
Who is MIckey?

I haven't read your whole post, but don't you think it's good that someone is standing up to those who "do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions."

I think it's good. Well done Mike van Erp!
Sorry my bad,it's Mikey innit or Mike van Erp to give him is full name.
The problem with placing yourself in front of idiots in cars is,sooner or later you'll come across a real head the ball who'll think they have the right to run over you.I thought I made that clear in my post.
If not is it any clearer for you now?
That's a very worthy sentiment - nice to hear that you're concerned for the chap.

I was responding to your lengthy first sentence [now in bold] including the phrase "annoy and irritate" which doesn't seem very complimentary.

So, I do hope you support those who are prepared to give their time to combat the sort of people you describe there. Specfiically, those who "do as they please irrespective of the law or others,and it has to be said with or only slight repercussions for their actions."
Post Reply