Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 5:30pm And the HR algorithms aren't being told, "only employ white men with posh accents", they're learning from analysis of existing recruitment. Apparently one learnt that the best way to pick a candidate was to scan the CV for the term "field hockey". :roll: This might be an urban legend, but it's illustrative.
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sjs
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by sjs »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:19pm We have a good chance of increased safety both for the occupants and for other road users.

I suspect that Tesla Autopilot already outperforms the carbon-based lifeform equivalents.
Based on experience with Tesla auto-dipping lights and auto-windscreen wipers I am not so sure.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 5:44pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 5:30pm And the HR algorithms aren't being told, "only employ white men with posh accents", they're learning from analysis of existing recruitment. Apparently one learnt that the best way to pick a candidate was to scan the CV for the term "field hockey". :roll: This might be an urban legend, but it's illustrative.
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:lol:

But also a serious point: if you were training a robot army right now, you obviously wouldn't train them on battles a thousand years ago. Just as training a robot car, you wouldn't train them on horse-drawn traffic. As with any learning, the material you use is important (so you want to learn Greek? do you want to read Homer or chat in the taverna?)
Mike Sales
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:34pm
If that means assertive mode initially then that's fie - assertive is likely still better than a typical distracted driver.
"Assertive" is the word chosen by Tesla to describe this mode. Others might choose another word, perhaps "agressive".

Extracts from the article describe behaviour illegal in US law.
journalist Emma Roth revealed that putting a Tesla in “assertive” mode will effectively direct the car to tailgate other motorists, perform unsafe passing maneuvers, and roll through certain stops (“average” mode isn’t much safer). All those behaviors are illegal in most U.S. states, and experts say there’s no reason why Tesla shouldn’t be required to program its vehicles to follow the local rules of the road, even when drivers travel between jurisdictions with varying safety standards.
At the 8:48 minute mark, the “assertive” car illegally enters an intersection midway through a yellow light, while the other two modes are able to safely perform a complete stop.
The problem, though, is that even parking lot stops aren’t actually optional, and failing to complete them can have deadly consequences. The National Safety Council estimates that 500 people die and 60,000 are injured in vehicle crashes in U.S. parking lots and garages every year, many of whom are pedestrians or motorists on their way to and from their cars. Moreover, Full Self Driving beta testers have recorded numerous videos of their Teslas rolling through stop signs and red lights — and experts say that it matters that the company is building tech that makes it easy to ignore stopping laws, even if not every Full Self Driving fail will result in an injury.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 13 Jan 2022, 6:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Pete Owens wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:38pm
mjr wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:41pm
Profits from a better-selling bullying car was always going to beat fines from regulators as an incentive.
But since the person buying a self dring car is the one most likely to be hurt should it crash then profit and safety will be aligned.

You don't see ads for airlines boasting that they crash more often than their competitors.
The car driver is most likely to be hurt?!
I am a pedestrian and cyclist, and I cannot agree. Car occupants are protected by much technology which I do not have.
Many drivers assume only motorised road users count. Don't fall into that error.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:19pm We have a good chance of increased safety both for the occupants and for other road users.

I suspect that Tesla Autopilot already outperforms the carbon-based lifeform equivalents.

It (and others) will continue to improve and it won't get tired or bored or aggressive or drunk.

But it would all be a lot better if there were independent evaluation and publication.

Jonathan

Tesla Vehicle Safety Reports:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport
I am sure self drive cars could be safer than human pilots.
However, I suspect that this would be a rather different road behaviour, and this article confirms my suspicion. Whether the users of Teslas object to the safest driving mode because it is too sadate and slow, or whether other drivers dislike being held up by the careful and law abiding computers I do not know, but for some reason Tesla felt the need to enable their customers to be driven less than completey safely.
Complying with traffic law like stopping on yellow (amber I presume) or leaving a safe distance to the vehicle ahead sounds like an independent evaluation. Enabling these laws to be ignored is self-evidently wrong.
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pete75
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by pete75 »

The software on self driving cars will be hacked and reprogrammed in just the same way that any other microprocessor device is. Someone reprogramming parts of the software will be far more dangerous than anything the manufacturer does. Then there's the risk of viruses being introduced if any sort of networking is used. Tesla, run by the somewhat twattish Elon Musk, will be the prime target.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pete75 wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 7:36pm The software on self driving cars will be hacked and reprogrammed in just the same way that any other microprocessor device is. Someone reprogramming parts of the software will be far more dangerous than anything the manufacturer does. Then there's the risk of viruses being introduced if any sort of networking is used. Tesla, run by the somewhat twattish Elon Musk, will be the prime target.
That's likely to happen, but it will only appeal to those who are already doing it: the people shelling out for spoilers, body kits, engine tunes, loud exhausts and so on – as well as those who have something financial to gain, such as commercial drivers who might be able to evade driving hours regulations and speed limiters. It's unlikely that the average motorist will fancy it.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bonefishblues »

pete75 wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 7:36pm The software on self driving cars will be hacked and reprogrammed in just the same way that any other microprocessor device is. Someone reprogramming parts of the software will be far more dangerous than anything the manufacturer does. Then there's the risk of viruses being introduced if any sort of networking is used. Tesla, run by the somewhat twattish Elon Musk, will be the prime target.
To what end, do you think?
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by pete75 »

Bonefishblues wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:20pm
pete75 wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 7:36pm The software on self driving cars will be hacked and reprogrammed in just the same way that any other microprocessor device is. Someone reprogramming parts of the software will be far more dangerous than anything the manufacturer does. Then there's the risk of viruses being introduced if any sort of networking is used. Tesla, run by the somewhat twattish Elon Musk, will be the prime target.
To what end, do you think?
If anything like computer virus developers some will be doing it for malicious purposes. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/ha ... take-cars/
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bonefishblues »

pete75 wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 8:13am
Bonefishblues wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:20pm
pete75 wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 7:36pm The software on self driving cars will be hacked and reprogrammed in just the same way that any other microprocessor device is. Someone reprogramming parts of the software will be far more dangerous than anything the manufacturer does. Then there's the risk of viruses being introduced if any sort of networking is used. Tesla, run by the somewhat twattish Elon Musk, will be the prime target.
To what end, do you think?
If anything like computer virus developers some will be doing it for malicious purposes. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/ha ... take-cars/
Malice. Understand, thanks.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 9:41am
pete75 wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 8:13am
Bonefishblues wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:20pm

To what end, do you think?
If anything like computer virus developers some will be doing it for malicious purposes. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/ha ... take-cars/
Malice. Understand, thanks.
Or to show that they are so clever that they can overcome the technical challenges, or to make a political point, or because a rival or someone who just hates Musk or likes nihilism pays them, or any of the other reasons that people write other viruses.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by thirdcrank »

I must have posted on one of these autonomous vehicle threads before that imo the real likelihood is that the law will be changed to accommodate them. eg The biggest effective drive for separate and compulsory cycling farcilities is going to be to get cyclists out of the road. (Pedestrians already have farciities for that purpose.) Autonomous vehicles will surely be able to communicate amongst themselves to avoid collisions and no doubt the technology exists or will do to program them to defer to every other type of road user including hedgehogs, cats and dogs, nags, cyclists and pedestrians including children. However, these vehicles are not being fitted with protective covers because pigs don't fly.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:15am I must have posted on one of these autonomous vehicle threads before that imo the real likelihood is that the law will be changed to accommodate them. eg The biggest effective drive for separate and compulsory cycling farcilities is going to be to get cyclists out of the road. (Pedestrians already have farciities for that purpose.) Autonomous vehicles will surely be able to communicate amongst themselves to avoid collisions and no doubt the technology exists or will do to program them to defer to every other type of road user including hedgehogs, cats and dogs, nags, cyclists and pedestrians including children. However, these vehicles are not being fitted with protective covers because pigs don't fly.
I think that it is only too likely that you are right.

I am surprised that it appears to be legal to allow these vehicles to be programmed to break the law.
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

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thirdcrank wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:15am I must have posted on one of these autonomous vehicle threads before that imo the real likelihood is that the law will be changed to accommodate them. eg The biggest effective drive for separate and compulsory cycling farcilities is going to be to get cyclists out of the road. (Pedestrians already have farciities for that purpose.)
Most rural roads still do not have them for pedestrians. It seems very unlikely to me that even the autonomous car lobby will be forceful enough to get cycleways on every piddling NSL B road, let alone Cs and Us.
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