Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

thirdcrank
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by thirdcrank »

I am surprised that it appears to be legal to allow these vehicles to be programmed to break the law.
I'm saying above all that the law will be changed. Then, even under current law, twiddling the settings is not, in itself, an offence. The most obvious example to me is the high-power cars which AIUI are are voluntarily restricted by the manufacturers to 250kph(?) or 156 mph. (I may be wrong about the exact numbers but they are certainly way, way above the national speed limit.) AFAIK, it's not an offence to have a car modified to go at Mach1 - it's an offence for the driver to exceed the limit.

There may well be different laws when when cars have no "driver." And the driving force is the desire of governments to attract the motor trade.
Mike Sales
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:45am
I am surprised that it appears to be legal to allow these vehicles to be programmed to break the law.
I'm saying above all that the law will be changed. Then, even under current law, twiddling the settings is not, in itself, an offence. The most obvious example to me is the high-power cars which AIUI are are voluntarily restricted by the manufacturers to 250kph(?) or 156 mph. (I may be wrong about the exact numbers but they are certainly way, way above the national speed limit.) AFAIK, it's not an offence to have a car modified to go at Mach1 - it's an offence for the driver to exceed the limit.

There may well be different laws when when cars have no "driver." And the driving force is the desire of governments to attract the motor trade.
Carrying a certain size of knife is an offence, it is not necessary to use it to be found guilty.
It's the same the whole world over
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It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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thirdcrank
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by thirdcrank »

Predicting the future is notoriously difficult and nobody really knows. I can see that in the eyes of some - it's a while since I heard from TUC - a motor vehicle is an offensive weapon. We can get a bit of an idea from current trends, and one that I can see is that this government is desperate to attract this industry and they won't achieve that with restrictions. They seem reluctant to "upset the motorist" ditto.
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kylecycler
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by kylecycler »

For anyone who's interested or even just curious, here's an overview of what it's like to live with a Tesla for a year.



I haven't even run a car for over ten years now, so on one hand I shouldn't care but on the other it sure was fascinating - a whole other world compared to what I knew of as 'driving'...

I found the video a few weeks ago and just started watching out of curiosity but got sucked in and watched it to the end - ignore the bloke's hipster beard and back-to-front baseball cap, he's an intelligent, articulate character and gives an interesting, informative account of what it's like to run one.
thirdcrank
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by thirdcrank »

I know somebody I believe to be conventionally rational who has a 71 reg Tesla. (His son plays for the same football team as one of my grandsons.) I don't think it's autonomous, just electric powered.

Re autonomous vehicles on minor roads etc., where the current national limit is 60mph, then there's already plenty of room for improvement and little obvious official appetite for change. I could imagine some system whereby these "silent" - apart from tyre and wind noise - vehicles make a noise, trumpeted as a safety improvement.
pete75
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 11:15am I must have posted on one of these autonomous vehicle threads before that imo the real likelihood is that the law will be changed to accommodate them. eg The biggest effective drive for separate and compulsory cycling farcilities is going to be to get cyclists out of the road. (Pedestrians already have farciities for that purpose.) Autonomous vehicles will surely be able to communicate amongst themselves to avoid collisions and no doubt the technology exists or will do to program them to defer to every other type of road user including hedgehogs, cats and dogs, nags, cyclists and pedestrians including children. However, these vehicles are not being fitted with protective covers because pigs don't fly.
If, as many claim, these things will be safer than human drivers there will be less need to separate cyclists and pedestrians from cars.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Mike Sales
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

pete75 wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:57pm If, as many claim, these things will be safer than human drivers there will be less need to separate cyclists and pedestrians from cars.
So, instead of risking a close pass in marginal circumstances, a Tesla will wait behind until the road is wide and clear? Even when in "assertive" mode?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
fastpedaller
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by fastpedaller »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 6:37pm
Pete Owens wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:38pm
mjr wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:41pm
Profits from a better-selling bullying car was always going to beat fines from regulators as an incentive.
But since the person buying a self dring car is the one most likely to be hurt should it crash then profit and safety will be aligned.

You don't see ads for airlines boasting that they crash more often than their competitors.
The car driver is most likely to be hurt?!
I am a pedestrian and cyclist, and I cannot agree. Car occupants are protected by much technology which I do not have.
Many drivers assume only motorised road users count. Don't fall into that error.
Absolutely. It's also worth noting that those involved with selling or otherwise promoting the technology seem to have a 'religious' narrative that it can do no wrong, and must be better 'because it's technology'. Take an example of a narrow and muddy country lane with high hedges ........ An astute driver may drive slowly in anticipation, whereas a pilot of a 'self-driver' may plough (no pun intended) on regardless, and the ABS brakes be applied far too late to have any effect. We mustn't fall into the trap "because it's new/sophisticated it MUST be better"
Apologies, to anyone of religion amongst us, as no offence is intended by using the word 'religious', it's just intended to explain the level of belief some have for tech.
fastpedaller
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by fastpedaller »

kylecycler wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:16pm For anyone who's interested or even just curious, here's an overview of what it's like to live with a Tesla for a year.



he's an intelligent, articulate character and gives an interesting, informative account of what it's like to run one.
I've watched most of it, and concur your comments about his character. He points out some scenarios where he "isn't comfortable with the self-drive function" (my words) so turns it off and takes full control. What about someone not as articulate/intelligent who just blindly allows the car to drive itself? At least if a sub 60 IQ dummy is driving a 'regular car' they know they should be controlling it.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bonefishblues »

fastpedaller wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 1:06pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 6:37pm
Pete Owens wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:38pm
But since the person buying a self dring car is the one most likely to be hurt should it crash then profit and safety will be aligned.

You don't see ads for airlines boasting that they crash more often than their competitors.
The car driver is most likely to be hurt?!
I am a pedestrian and cyclist, and I cannot agree. Car occupants are protected by much technology which I do not have.
Many drivers assume only motorised road users count. Don't fall into that error.
Absolutely. It's also worth noting that those involved with selling or otherwise promoting the technology seem to have a 'religious' narrative that it can do no wrong, and must be better 'because it's technology'. Take an example of a narrow and muddy country lane with high hedges ........ An astute driver may drive slowly in anticipation, whereas a pilot of a 'self-driver' may plough (no pun intended) on regardless, and the ABS brakes be applied far too late to have any effect. We mustn't fall into the trap "because it's new/sophisticated it MUST be better"
Apologies, to anyone of religion amongst us, as no offence is intended by using the word 'religious', it's just intended to explain the level of belief some have for tech.
Is this knowledge on your part, or speculation? Seems to me that the AI parameters could very easily be set to mitigate the "I know this road' syndrome for instance - amongst many scenarios which can lead to excessive speed in a particular situation.
Mike Sales
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Bonefishblues wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 1:39pm
Is this knowledge on your part, or speculation? Seems to me that the AI parameters could very easily be set to mitigate the "I know this road' syndrome for instance - amongst many scenarios which can lead to excessive speed in a particular situation.
I believe the parameters could be set for sedate driving.
The Tesla choice of modes is not encouraging.
The company, (and their competitors) have an incentive to not constrain the drivers' road use more than the drivers wish, and many drivers will want to "make good progress". They resent anything which slows them down..
Regulation might help, but governments have a poor record of restraining aggressive (or assertive!) driving.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Bonefishblues
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bonefishblues »

Of course people will want to get to their destinations speedily, but it would be an act of remarkable commercial stupidity to program[sic] the cars such that they didn't do that safely. Musk is an eccentric, but not a stupid one, I think.
pete75
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by pete75 »

Mike Sales wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 1:01pm
pete75 wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 12:57pm If, as many claim, these things will be safer than human drivers there will be less need to separate cyclists and pedestrians from cars.
So, instead of risking a close pass in marginal circumstances, a Tesla will wait behind until the road is wide and clear? Even when in "assertive" mode?
I've no idea and that's why I started my sentence with If. Ask those who confidently claim they will be safer than human drivers.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Mike Sales
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Bonefishblues wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 1:52pm Of course people will want to get to their destinations speedily, but it would be an act of remarkable commercial stupidity to program[sic] the cars such that they didn't do that safely. Musk is an eccentric, but not a stupid one, I think.
You might think so, but read again (?) the first paragraph of the article.
housands of Teslas are now being equipped with a feature that prompts the car to break common traffic laws — and the revelation is prompting some advocates to question the safety benefits of automated vehicle technology when unsafe human drivers are allowed to program it to do things that endanger other road users.
Above you will find a discussion which seems to conclude that the programming is not an offence. The law breaking only occurs when the driver is actually caught transgressing, and as we know, enforcement is lax.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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kylecycler
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by kylecycler »

fastpedaller wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 1:22pmI've watched most of it, and concur your comments about his character. He points out some scenarios where he "isn't comfortable with the self-drive function" (my words) so turns it off and takes full control. What about someone not as articulate/intelligent who just blindly allows the car to drive itself? At least if a sub 60 IQ dummy is driving a 'regular car' they know they should be controlling it.
He's not someone I relate to, I just meant he did a pretty good job of showing what it all involves.

And as someone who's never even worked a satvav in a car (I've got a Garmin for cycling although it's old and basic and usually only tells me what I'm doing and what I've done, not where I'm going - I can set it to map routes but seldom bother), I found the video seriously daunting, tbh.

Not a future I particularly care about.
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