Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Thousands of Teslas are now being equipped with a feature that prompts the car to break common traffic laws — and the revelation is prompting some advocates to question the safety benefits of automated vehicle technology when unsafe human drivers are allowed to program it to do things that endanger other road users.

In an October 2021 update its deceptively named “Full Self Driving Mode” beta software, the controversial Texas automaker introduced a new feature that allows drivers to pick one of three custom driving “profiles” — “chill,” “average,” and “assertive” — which moderates how aggressively the vehicle applies many of its automated safety features on U.S. roads.
The rollout went largely unnoticed by street safety advocates until a Jan. 9 article in The Verge, when journalist Emma Roth revealed that putting a Tesla in “assertive” mode will effectively direct the car to tailgate other motorists, perform unsafe passing maneuvers, and roll through certain stops (“average” mode isn’t much safer). All those behaviors are illegal in most U.S. states, and experts say there’s no reason why Tesla shouldn’t be required to program its vehicles to follow the local rules of the road, even when drivers travel between jurisdictions with varying safety standards.
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/01/12/ ... fety-laws/

I had thought that cars programmed to obey the law and drive safely would not behave like human drivers do, and that might not be acceptable to owners (and perhaps to other drivers) Here is the solution!
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

Autonomous and semi-autonomous vehicles offer opportunities to improve road safety.

In general from here on the limiting factors in grabbing those opportunities are going to be regulatory rather than technological.

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

This was highlighted as a problem several years ago when Microsoft (I think, or it might have been Google) announced they weren't programming their AV with rules, they were teaching it to learn by observing other drivers.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:32pm This was highlighted as a problem several years ago when Microsoft (I think, or it might have been Google) announced they weren't programming their AV with rules, they were teaching it to learn by observing other drivers.
In the same way, algorithms developed to choose employees reproduced the prejudices of humans.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Yes, a fitting analogy.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:37pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:32pm This was highlighted as a problem several years ago when Microsoft (I think, or it might have been Google) announced they weren't programming their AV with rules, they were teaching it to learn by observing other drivers.
In the same way, algorithms developed to choose employees reproduced the prejudices of humans.
They might. But a lot of the AI biasses that have been analysed come from underrepresentation of minorities in the training group rather than prejudice inherited from the designers.

Jonathan
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:44pm . But a lot of the AI biasses that have been analysed come from underrepresentation of minorities in the training group rather than prejudice inherited from the designers.

Jonathan
Some of the biases? Do we need to ensure that Tesla robot car students encounter plenty of cyclists (and pedestrians) and that their human tutors behave correctly? Enabling those different levels of law compliance seems to me corrupt.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:51pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:44pm But a lot of the AI biasses that have been analysed come from underrepresentation of minorities in the training group rather than prejudice inherited from the designers.
Some of the biases? Do we need to ensure that Tesla robot car students encounter plenty of cyclists (and pedestrians) and that their human tutors behave correctly?
Yes. And they do encounter plenty: the vast majority of the Tesla training data comes from use in the real world.

Jonathan

PS: They don't learn as individual cars. The whole thing is a vast distributed network.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by pete75 »

If the quality of Tesla self driving software is similar to the general build quality of the vehicles I wouldn't trust it much.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by mjr »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:24pm In general from here on the limiting factors in grabbing those opportunities are going to be regulatory rather than technological.
So we have no chance of improved safety, then! :(

Profits from a better-selling bullying car was always going to beat fines from regulators as an incentive.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

We have a good chance of increased safety both for the occupants and for other road users.

I suspect that Tesla Autopilot already outperforms the carbon-based lifeform equivalents.

It (and others) will continue to improve and it won't get tired or bored or aggressive or drunk.

But it would all be a lot better if there were independent evaluation and publication.

Jonathan

Tesla Vehicle Safety Reports:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Frankly I think that anything that accelerates the uptake of self driving is a good thing.

If that means assertive mode initially then that's fie - assertive is likely still better than a typical distracted driver.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Pete Owens »

mjr wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:41pm
Profits from a better-selling bullying car was always going to beat fines from regulators as an incentive.
But since the person buying a self dring car is the one most likely to be hurt should it crash then profit and safety will be aligned.

You don't see ads for airlines boasting that they crash more often than their competitors.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:44pm
Mike Sales wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:37pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 12:32pm This was highlighted as a problem several years ago when Microsoft (I think, or it might have been Google) announced they weren't programming their AV with rules, they were teaching it to learn by observing other drivers.
In the same way, algorithms developed to choose employees reproduced the prejudices of humans.
They might. But a lot of the AI biasses that have been analysed come from underrepresentation of minorities in the training group rather than prejudice inherited from the designers.

Jonathan
Isn't that what Mike was saying? And it's the same with the cars. The cars aren't being taught, "do this", they're learning from observing the habits of existing human drivers. (One effect of this will be to spread American driving habits to other countries.)

And the HR algorithms aren't being told, "only employ white men with posh accents", they're learning from analysis of existing recruitment. Apparently one learnt that the best way to pick a candidate was to scan the CV for the term "field hockey". :roll: This might be an urban legend, but it's illustrative.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 3:38pm You don't see ads for airlines boasting that they crash more often than their competitors.
No, instead of cut corners and greater risk-taking, they boast that they have lower fares and faster journeys. Something similar will happen with self drivel cars.
Last edited by mjr on 13 Jan 2022, 7:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Post Reply