E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Jdsk
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Jdsk »

arnsider wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 7:35am The "legislation" I refer to is the need for cyclists to have insurance against third party claims and the inevitable registration identity that goes along with that.
Has this come up as a serious proposal somewhere?

Thanks

Jonathan
hemo
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by hemo »

Pedelecs and ebikes that don't conform to pedelec standards are all covered by the DVLA so there is no need to keep going in to this and that about insurance etc,etc. The print is in Black and White and states what is required by the user.

Motorised e scooters are another matter and DVLA clearly state only trial scooters in a scheme are legal. Non legal private scooters misuse is dealt with in the same way as non legal ebikes, though very few in both cases are ever prosecuted.
thirdcrank
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by thirdcrank »

The point I'm trying to get across is that an escooter which isn't "street legal" is self-evident. It will take some knowledge of the law and technical expertise to detect eg an ebike which has been modified so that it is no longer compliant.
cycle tramp
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by cycle tramp »

arnsider wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 9:13am This issue may have been touched on in other posts as an incidental, but I believe it is an essential one that needs facing head-on.
Under our noses, E scooter legalities have become very controversial and have pretty onerous implications for us cyclists.
To ride an E Scooter legally here on public roads, you need to have a provisional driving license.
You also need to have hired the vehicle from a Bona Fide outfit that includes a form of third party insurance in its charges.
The furore from the usual anti-cycling culprits has been deflected towards scooters because of the huge publicity Towns opting for the schemes have generated.
It is only a matter of time before an accommodation has to be reached.
I do not doubt in my mind that this will mean compulsory third party insurance for cyclists and possibly some form of competence test...

....The most “dangerous” trend presently comes from the anomalous situation over the banning the use of private scooters from the roads. This is obviously a sore point and private use will inevitably be sanctioned, but with compulsory insurance. It will only be a matter of time and we will all have to stump up.
I can understand your concern, but the fact that bicycles are powered by muscle in the same way that pedestrians and horse riders are should be seen as the key differential.
Organic muscle power has its own limitations (power output/endurance) that mechanically propelled vehicles do not have. As a result that is less chance of them causing personal injury. And as a result I believe that those in power will continue to ignore the fact that cyclists exist.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Bonefishblues »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 12:57pm The point I'm trying to get across is that an escooter which isn't "street legal" is self-evident. It will take some knowledge of the law and technical expertise to detect eg an ebike which has been modified so that it is no longer compliant.
It's a point well made.
thirdcrank
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by thirdcrank »

The legislation is already in place to ban cyclists from a carriageway by traffic regulation order (TRO) and I could imagine the circumstances where a carriageway had been reduced in width to create a separate cycle route and it might be easier to ban cycling on the remaining carriageway. In connection with E vehicles, I think there will also be lobbying to get cyclists out of the road.

Looking into my cheapo crystal ball, I can imagine two bits of tidying up which have been mooted over the last few years.

The first is the long-overdue update of the Offences Against the Person Act, 1861. The work has been grinding along for ages. The relevant bit for cyclists is s35 Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vi ... section/35

Whenever it's used eg Charlie Alliston, nobody is satisfied. At some point I ploughed through the relevant Law Commission stuff and I cannot now remember what they were recommending. There has been talk of updating the RTA eg to create offences such as causing death by dangerous cycling.

As for cycle registration with some form of reg plates, the only purpose would be to require the registered keeper to identify the alleged offender. To the extent that human rights still apply in the UK, this is a breach of the right to avoid self-incrimination. And whenever it has come up before, successive governments have dismissed it as unworkable anyway
mattsccm
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by mattsccm »

The last bit could be dealt with easily.Make it a legal obligation to declare the driver including your self.
Tangled Metal
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Tangled Metal »

Self incrimination?

Officer sees you getting out of your car and asks you if you've committed any motoring offences. Legal duty to declare motoring offences means you tell the officer that you committed 6 speeding offences and used your phone while driving in the last 5 miles that you can remember. Goodbye licence for awhile! Of course you don't use your phone while driving but I doubt anyone who says they're always clean on the speed front. Including myself! :lol:
Jon Lucas
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Jon Lucas »

At present, e-scooters are seen in the public eye as a 'type of bike', i.e. akin to cyclists. We need to make the obvious point that cycles and e-scooters are very different transport modes, in that cycles, including e-bikes, are 'active travel' which needs human power to make it move, and has all the benefits that go with that, and the other requires no human activity and is a powered vehicle in the same way as cars, motor cycles and others are. Unless we can get that distinction into the public arena, the likelihood is that anything that is proposed for e-scooters will eventually find its way to being proposed for cycles.
hemo
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by hemo »

Witnessed a brainless yoof tonight at about 8pm ish overtaking cars in 30 zone on a hot rod scooter he was cutting in and out of traffic with what appears impunity. Witnessing the fool tonight I predict his life may well be short lived if he carries on doing so. Personally I have little sympathy for them if they get hurt or killed.
Bonefishblues
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Bonefishblues »

What's a hot rod scooter?
hemo
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by hemo »

One that easily can hit 30mph+, I was going 25mph in a 3.5t van and said scooter was gone.
For the knowledgeable or techy types there is OSF (open source firmware) to hack the controllers and to delimit them to about 40mph.
Bonefishblues
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Bonefishblues »

hemo wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:12am One that easily can hit 30mph+, I was going 25mph in a 3.5t van and said scooter was gone.
For the knowledgeable or techy types there is OSF (open source firmware) to hack the controllers and to delimit them to about 40mph.
So both illegal and illegally modified I guess.
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mjr
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:16am
hemo wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:12am One that easily can hit 30mph+, I was going 25mph in a 3.5t van and said scooter was gone.
For the knowledgeable or techy types there is OSF (open source firmware) to hack the controllers and to delimit them to about 40mph.
So both illegal and illegally modified I guess.
Why? Unless it was someone else's (such as a hire scheme one), probably no law was broken to modify it. It is, of course, currently illegal on roads, but that is true even unmodified.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: E Scooter implications for Cyclists

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:39am
Bonefishblues wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:16am
hemo wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 10:12am One that easily can hit 30mph+, I was going 25mph in a 3.5t van and said scooter was gone.
For the knowledgeable or techy types there is OSF (open source firmware) to hack the controllers and to delimit them to about 40mph.
So both illegal and illegally modified I guess.
Why? Unless it was someone else's (such as a hire scheme one), probably no law was broken to modify it. It is, of course, currently illegal on roads, but that is true even unmodified.
I was under the impression that the e-scooters being imported were also subject to speed restriction, hence my 'double-barrelled' comments. Is that not the case?
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