The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

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Jdsk
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by Jdsk »

sjs wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 8:36am
Psamathe wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 11:13am
pwa wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 4:38am ...He still gets some things wrong though,....
I thought that was impossible on matters of faith or morals? Papal infallibility. So when he says wrong to have no or one child or wrong to have a pet then those are issues or morals so papal infallibility should apply and he must be right.
I'm no expert but believe infallibility is a lot more limited than that. Infallible only when he says he is, or when everyone agrees he is, or something.
The scope is limited to when he is speaking ex cathedra. That doesn't require agreement from others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Jonathan

PS: The suggestion that scientific method is just another faith-based system has appeared above. It isn't. For example there is no ex cathedra.
Tangled Metal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by Tangled Metal »

I thought people were calling atheism, humanism, or whatever you call it a belief system. Afterall you can't prove a god you can't prove there isn't a god neither so both are beliefs. Scientific method isn't atheism or humanism aiui. Although there was a philosopher/mathematician who said said something any Mathematics is the only religion that can prove it's true, with much better phrasing obviously. 😆
pwa
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 9:17am
sjs wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 8:36am
Psamathe wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 11:13am
I thought that was impossible on matters of faith or morals? Papal infallibility. So when he says wrong to have no or one child or wrong to have a pet then those are issues or morals so papal infallibility should apply and he must be right.
I'm no expert but believe infallibility is a lot more limited than that. Infallible only when he says he is, or when everyone agrees he is, or something.
The scope is limited to when he is speaking ex cathedra. That doesn't require agreement from others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Jonathan

PS: The suggestion that scientific method is just another faith-based system has appeared above. It isn't. For example there is no ex cathedra.
The Vatican may say the Pope is infallible (though I haven't heard them claim that for as long as I can remember) but the congregation don't generally think that, so it counts for nothing anyway. I have never met a Catholic who thinks Popes don't get things wrong. At best a Pope is like your dad, with lots of good advice but a few goofy notions chucked in as well.
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al_yrpal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by al_yrpal »

Tangled Metal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 10:19am I thought people were calling atheism, humanism, or whatever you call it a belief system. Afterall you can't prove a god you can't prove there isn't a god neither so both are beliefs. Scientific method isn't atheism or humanism aiui. Although there was a philosopher/mathematician who said said something any Mathematics is the only religion that can prove it's true, with much better phrasing obviously. 😆
Humanists are people who shape their own lives in the here and now, because we believe it's the only life we have. We make sense of the world through logic, reason, and evidence, and always seek to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect.

Aethiests arent Humanists

Al
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reohn2
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 8:36pm Humanists are people who shape their own lives in the here and now, because we believe it's the only life we have.
So do many people who don't hang the "humanist" label on themselves.
We make sense of the world through logic, reason, and evidence, and always seek to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect.
So can people with religious belief.
Aethiests aren't Humanists

Al
They can be both
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by Tangled Metal »

You believe in something that's a belief. You are giving it's positives (albeit ones that aren't unique), that's a form of promotion. I say it's almost another form of religion. :lol:

Interesting how the secular and religious repeat things that work for them. Various forms of meditative practises happen in religions. Many appear in similar forms across religion such as meditation and meditative chanting. Many of these are also practised in one form or another in the secular, humanist, atheist or whatever "non-religious" beliefs system you have.

I know an atheist and humanist who goes to Buddhist retreats. She likes the idea but doesn't believe. The retreat helps her greatly though. It's hard wired into is one way or another I reckon.
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by pwa »

Tangled Metal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 6:45am You believe in something that's a belief. You are giving it's positives (albeit ones that aren't unique), that's a form of promotion. I say it's almost another form of religion. :lol:

Interesting how the secular and religious repeat things that work for them. Various forms of meditative practises happen in religions. Many appear in similar forms across religion such as meditation and meditative chanting. Many of these are also practised in one form or another in the secular, humanist, atheist or whatever "non-religious" beliefs system you have.

I know an atheist and humanist who goes to Buddhist retreats. She likes the idea but doesn't believe. The retreat helps her greatly though. It's hard wired into is one way or another I reckon.
About thirty years ago I regularly went to Buddhist events, including retreats, but never quite believed in reincarnation etc. The group I mixed with thought that there are many ways to improvement of one's spiritual well being, not just their own brand, but they considered their own faith as the clearest, least cluttered way forward. They welcomed folk who didn't sign up to everything, and they didn't pressure people to accept anything they didn't want to. If I did revert to religion, it would be a variety that one.
Tangled Metal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by Tangled Metal »

This retreat is the Buddhist Centre in South Cumbria, Cartmel way I think. I understand its run under the principles of an Eastern Buddhist priest who holds very western Buddhist beliefs. Or something like that. A western form of Buddhism and very open to all. You can simply pick the bits that work for you.

In this modern age when even MPs are caught doing the secular form of religious meditation known as mindfulness in the house I think there's certainly room for the practises associated with religion in the modern, western life. Even communal singing is becoming more common. Although I'm being very community minded by not taking part, seriously have you heard my "singing" voice? :lol:
Tangled Metal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by Tangled Metal »

I should point out that I suffer with migraines and without realising it I use elements of Buddhist meditation to manage it during an attack. My tracker has even recorded the effects of it at the start of an attack when high stress gave way to medium then low stress levels.

There's good in all religion and I would argue the bits that are truly bad are more about politics, power and human nature. Cultural more than religious issues. It's not the religious aspects that used to rule out birth control but power and cultural.

Interesting how one organisation that's fighting the anti choice religious right is the church of Satan. Iirc they started legal proceedings against was it the Texas law that pushed struggling against Wade vs...?
pwa
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by pwa »

Tangled Metal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 7:15am This retreat is the Buddhist Centre in South Cumbria, Cartmel way I think. I understand its run under the principles of an Eastern Buddhist priest who holds very western Buddhist beliefs. Or something like that. A western form of Buddhism and very open to all. You can simply pick the bits that work for you.

In this modern age when even MPs are caught doing the secular form of religious meditation known as mindfulness in the house I think there's certainly room for the practises associated with religion in the modern, western life. Even communal singing is becoming more common. Although I'm being very community minded by not taking part, seriously have you heard my "singing" voice? :lol:
One useful legacy of my flirtation with a Western form of Buddhism more than three decades ago is my ethical code, my way of deciding what is good and and what is not. Simply put, they shifted the emphasis from the action itself, to the motivation behind the action. So an action might be judged good or judged bad depending on whether the motivation came from love or from hate. The motivation was the key. If you killed a family member out of selfless love, to spare them an agonising death, it would be morally good. But if you killed them to get your hands on their dosh, it would be bad. This made more sense to me than morality based on Christianity, which had a muddled approach to morality. I kept it when I stopped attending Buddhist events.
reohn2
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 7:25am One useful legacy of my flirtation with a Western form of Buddhism more than three decades ago is my ethical code, my way of deciding what is good and and what is not. Simply put, they shifted the emphasis from the action itself, to the motivation behind the action. So an action might be judged good or judged bad depending on whether the motivation came from love or from hate. The motivation was the key. If you killed a family member out of selfless love, to spare them an agonising death, it would be morally good. But if you killed them to get your hands on their dosh, it would be bad. This made more sense to me than morality based on Christianity, which had a muddled approach to morality. I kept it when I stopped attending Buddhist events.
That is a good and wholesome moral ethic,something most forms of religion don't adhere to.

AFAICS from study of Buddhism it isn't a religion but a coping strategy for the pressures and suffering of life through a method of meditation of the here and now which is mindfulness that ultimately leads to a better understanding of Love,many things have been hung on it(reincarnation,the many worlds,praying,effigies of the Buddha,etc,etc)some of which is also found in religion which is a belief in a father figure or superior being(God) or gods in various form.
But in my understanding in essence Buddhism is a way(the middle way)of coping with life,as with religion there's an aweful lot of crap been added by men(overwhelmingly men)claiming all sorts of untruths added over the centuries.
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al_yrpal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by al_yrpal »

I have never seen any mantra for Humanism. The thing that marks it out from aetheism is "always seeking to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect." In that way its not any sort of religion. Most religions appear to worship something or some mythical diety, Humanism doesnt. Its not a religion.

Many people now choose a Humanist celebrant to conduct funerals and now weddings in N Ireland and Scotland. England too soon hopefully. Its a trusted brand of non belief.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
reohn2
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 9:00am I have never seen any mantra for Humanism. The thing that marks it out from aetheism is "always seeking to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect." In that way its not any sort of religion. Most religions appear to worship something or some mythical diety, Humanism doesnt. Its not a religion.

Many people now choose a Humanist celebrant to conduct funerals and now weddings in N Ireland and Scotland. England too soon hopefully. Its a trusted brand of non belief.

Al
"always seeking to treat those around us with warmth, understanding, and respect" Implies that aethists don't do those things and humanists do,which isn't necessarily true.
It seems you're trying to place humanism above aethism in some sort of heirarchy which IMO doesn't exist!
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thirdcrank
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by thirdcrank »

AIUI, all Humanists are atheists. Not all atheists are Humanists.
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al_yrpal
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Re: The Pope: Children pets and the Tour de France

Post by al_yrpal »

I think " aethiests dont necessarily treat those around them with warmth, understanding, and respect." is a better description. That mantra is the only 'add on' humanists subscribe to...

This list of noteable Humanists is interesting. It includes people like Lincoln, Darwin and Einstein.
https://www.humanistsociety.net/content ... -humanists

Add to that Dr Cox, Stephen Fry , Joan Bakewell in a more contemporary local sense.

Alice Roberts is the UK President.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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