Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
hoogerbooger
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by hoogerbooger »

John Cooper Clark lyric ? .....would make a " flat top tuber" pretty retro chique......but then I recall his classic " I don't want to be nice" wheras I think we should.
old fangled
cycle tramp
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by cycle tramp »

brumster wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 8:01pm How long before Shimano electrify and Di2 all their mid to high end transmission parts? The traditional touring bike may eventually become harder to spec with a suitable mechanical groupset that can be repaired at the side of the road..
I think bicycle touring is wide enough to support both ends of the spectrum, from part electric part pedal cycle touring bikes (for those who come late into the pass time, or for those who have been touring along time) to the very simplest of bicycles, which have one brake, one gear and no freewheel (I've had met a couple of cyclist who did tour on a fixed wheel)
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CJ
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by CJ »

tatanab wrote: 25 Jan 2022, 9:35amI still prefer Campag (its an age thing) but mix with Shimano where those parts are more appropriate.
I use whatever works best. That was Campag headsets, hubs and pedals in the 70s because at that time they had the best bearings, but SunTour derailleurs because they shifted better. Then in the 80s Shimano invented the freehub, removing the risk of axle breakage, and made bearings that were just as good as Campag, but with better seals. Meanwhile Campag proved they didn't really understand anything other than road-racing with some disastrous attempts at wide-range derailleurs and mountain-bike parts. You only had to read their press materials, all about 'agonistic' cycling, whilst excusing themselves for offering lower gears - but not much lower - with the concession that some riders are old, or female! In Campagnolo's cycling world it is never imagined that one might expend less effort than the most of which one may be capable, so as better to enjoy the scenery etc.

If I had a medal to give for the manufacturer who best understood touring it would go to SunTour. It's a pity they never charged as much as the market would have paid for their world-beating mechs, so lacked the resources to compete with Shimano when their patent on the slant parallelogram expired. Thus Shimano were able to make indexed shifting work at last and had it all their own way for the next two decades.

In spite of themselves "the nice Vicenza company, button-hole-flower of the made-in-Italy bicycle industry" did occasionally make something useful - and I'm happy to use it when they do. My Spa Ti-Tourer sports Campag Ergopower brifters from the noughties, which just happen to pull the same amount of cable as Shimano road and gravel 10-speed from 2016+ with the facility to shift as many as three down or five up in one stroke - very handy for simultanteous contra-shifts when shifting wide-range at the front. Thus I'm able to work an 11-36 cassette with a GRX rear mech; and as these turn of the century Ergos don't really index the front shift (the left lever has like a micro-indexing action) I am able to combine that with an XT front mech on a 40,20 double. Result: a very reliable and simple to use 15 to 98 inch gear range. Tullio surely would not approve!
Chris Juden
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mattheus
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by mattheus »

CJ wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 11:20am In spite of themselves "the nice Vicenza company, button-hole-flower of the made-in-Italy bicycle industry" did occasionally make something useful - and I'm happy to use it when they do. My Spa Ti-Tourer sports Campag Ergopower brifters from the noughties, which just happen to pull the same amount of cable as Shimano road and gravel 10-speed from 2016+ with the facility to shift as many as three down or five up in one stroke - very handy for simultanteous contra-shifts when shifting wide-range at the front. Thus I'm able to work an 11-36 cassette with a GRX rear mech; and as these turn of the century Ergos don't really index the front shift (the left lever has like a micro-indexing action) I am able to combine that with an XT front mech on a 40,20 double. Result: a very reliable and simple to use 15 to 98 inch gear range. Tullio surely would not approve!
I'm still using those "brifters" with Shimano 8sp - thanks mainly to your excellent Shimergo articles!

Has any info on 2016 (or later) components been put together since your article (dated 12 April 2012) ?

In the meantime, I shall attempt to remember this post is here - in case I am ever bewitched into entering the evil modernity of 10-speed gearing ...
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CJ
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by CJ »

mattheus wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 1:09pmHas any info on 2016 (or later) components been put together since your article (dated 12 April 2012) ?
I'm afraid not. CUK no longer employs any competent person. But I did write a review of the GRX mech that mentioned its shimergo capabilities.
Chris Juden
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GideonReade
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by GideonReade »

So now, what about these new fangled axles? My other half has them on new MTB. I think I like the look of the basic idea. Applicable or not applicable to touring bikes?

I also would observe that some of the "you'll always be able to get X", or "is always available" can be a bit location specific. We built up some nice bikes for a big tour 2016-2018, and the word on the street/forum was that 9 speed was always supported, so we went with that. But on our extensive travels in Asia (not Japan/China/Taiwan), it transpired that these countries only "discovered" leisure cycling in the 10-speed era, so 10 was more available than 9. Where and how is cycling, the sort that might provide touring spares, popular in "Africa"? It's rather a large place, as I understand it, but someone probably knows.
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CJ
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by CJ »

GideonReade wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 3:18pm So now, what about these new fangled axles? My other half has them on new MTB. I think I like the look of the basic idea. Applicable or not applicable to touring bikes?
I assume you mean 'thru axles'. I say yes for sure if you have disc brakes, no problem if you don't. I can't say how common they might be in the developing world, but for sure they are the way things will go at the top of the market. In future people will say: "What? You had wheels that could simply fall off if the fastener was a bit loose!" They'll be exaggerating, but have a point. And as tourists, we don't have any problem with the extra ten seconds it takes to deal with the not-quite-so-quick-release thru-axle.
Chris Juden
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CJ
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by CJ »

Unfortunately, since cycle-tourists no longer have an organisation to represent their needs or advise which trends are more than just a trend, but should be embraced with gladness, we shall probably retreat into old-fashioned suspicion of the new.
Chris Juden
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GideonReade
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by GideonReade »

(thru axles and far travels)

Does the thru axle take the weight - is it that which bends or breaks?

It is thicker, than a olde QR axle, isn't it, but ally? Are there different diameters, are there settled standards yet (how many standards make not-standard?).

I guess in the back of beyond, if it's just a Xmm rod with an MX thread & a handle, it's pretty possible to fabricate locally (in steel). Since in the back of beyond, welders, steel and I expect machine tools & machinists are much more available to travelling cyclists than here. I suppose a QR axle could be substituted too though.
brumster
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by brumster »

GideonReade wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 8:11pm (thru axles and far travels)

Does the thru axle take the weight - is it that which bends or breaks?

It is thicker, than a olde QR axle, isn't it, but ally? Are there different diameters, are there settled standards yet (how many standards make not-standard?).

I guess in the back of beyond, if it's just a Xmm rod with an MX thread & a handle, it's pretty possible to fabricate locally (in steel). Since in the back of beyond, welders, steel and I expect machine tools & machinists are much more available to travelling cyclists than here. I suppose a QR axle could be substituted too though.
My only concerns with the thru axle would be whether the hub bearing size has been reduced to accommodate the larger diameter axle within the hub shell. Also seen plenty of folk with seized maxles who also manage to either round off the hex head with their worn allenkey, or snap the ' qr' style lever.
m-gineering
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by m-gineering »

GideonReade wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 8:11pm (thru axles and far travels)

Does the thru axle take the weight - is it that which bends or breaks?

It is thicker, than a olde QR axle, isn't it, but ally? Are there different diameters, are there settled standards yet (how many standards make not-standard?).
There are a few diameters (12 & 15 being the most common) and variety in courser or finer threads. And lenghts are all over the place for different dropout thickness and hubwidth. Breakage seems unlikely though, just make sure they don't rust solid. Goes for most parts, but maintenance and tourist don't always go together ;) (still not as bad as bromptons or recumbents)
Marten

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mattheus
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by mattheus »

When I first started looking at disc brakes, I could see a lot of advantages, and some cons.

Finding out there wasn't even an agreed standard on axles was one of the cons that tipped the balance for me.
rareposter
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by rareposter »

mattheus wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 12:17pm When I first started looking at disc brakes, I could see a lot of advantages, and some cons.

Finding out there wasn't even an agreed standard on axles was one of the cons that tipped the balance for me.
Well for years, the standard was 100mm front and 135mm rear (before that 130mm on older road bikes but that's now only found on SS / fixed and can largely be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.) Held in by a 9mm QR spindle. This makes changing wheels relatively simple - about the only thing you have to worry about is rim width and tyre clearance.

As more and more cogs got put onto the rear, it got to the point where you couldn't keep dishing the wheel so the hub needed to get wider. This partly came from MTBs but all bikes benefitted from the extra stiffness and strength offered.

The thru-axle comes with the FRAME - not the wheels - and axles can be used with any compatible hub, most hubs will take a variety of fittings via interchangeable end caps. It's not really linked to the disc brakes to be honest, you can still fit different wheels with no issues at all - might need to adjust the caliper to accommodate but the disc brakes are unaffected by what axle is being used.
GideonReade
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by GideonReade »

Thanks. My motivation for asking about axles was partly motivated by thinking about breakages on tour.

I broke a QR rear axle once (I mean the axle tube snapped, on an LX hub), in the UK, took about a day to sort, or something. Of course most bike shops and plenty of garages might have a suitable axle. Well, AFAIK, and if it's LX type "conventional" stuff. Whereas I met a chap on tour once, had snapped his rear axle, this was a QR but XT, which seemed to be different bearing sizes, and he ended up riding on it from (I think) Bishkek-Almaty for the most accessible replacement. And Bishkek is a bit of an MTB hub even, but perhaps post QR, Anyway, thing is, essential and highly specific is a bad combination.
rareposter
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Re: Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Post by rareposter »

GideonReade wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 1:39pm Anyway, thing is, essential and highly specific is a bad combination.
You could say the same about loads of parts on a bike. Rear mech hangers and spokes are the two most common things to break and they are found in a plethora of shapes and sizes and types. Spokes you can get away with something like this:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/fibe ... ent-spoke/
(plus replacement spokes are easy enough to carry taped to a chainstay or something).

Rear mech hangers are specific, there are hundreds of types although again, easy enough to buy from the manufacturer at point of sale and have a couple spare. You're never going to find the right one out and about though. (does not apply to hub geared bikes!)

I'd say that your far less likely to break a thru-axle than a regular QR-type. Thru axle is vastly stronger and stiffer. Has the added bonus that even if you do break one, you don't need to strip the whole hub down, you just replace the axle - the whole point is that it just slides straight out. Also an easy thing to carry as a spare - as it's effectively part of the frame, not the wheels, thru-axles are available from the manufacturer.
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