BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

[mjr]

That one includes distance travelled....

Already corrected while you were posting

So you can add sliding back and forth between absolutes and a questionable rate to their presentation sins.

If I remember the broadcast, it was generally very light on numbers and heavy on emotions... which is how people are thought to make decisions and makes good telly, but it would be nice if we had a broadcaster with a message to inform and educate...

[Jdsk]

: - )

Thanks for the subtitles.

(I haven't watched it.)

Jonathan

[reohn2]

A suitable parallel might be the distinction made in accident investigation across a number of sectors between "primary cause" and "contributing factors".

So it would be perfectly possible for a road accident to have a primary cause of driver error (incompetence, inattention, lack of skill/judgement, etc) but with a contributory factor being road design/maintenance/etc.

In the past two years I've driven a car and ridden a motorcycle 40,000miles,between 50 and 60% of that has been on motorways that's slightly above normal annual mileage for me,but not by much.
I have ridden a bicycle on the road very little in that time.

My observation is that a lack of consideration,impatience and lack of attention of traffic conditions are the most likely the primary cause of danger on UK roads.
Bad road design is a very small part of that danger,"signage overload" in connection to driver inattention and impatience can be a problem though,but it's small IMObservation.
Road condition,bad surfaces,uneven ironworks,potholes and loose gravel etc can present problems for two wheelers though less of a challenge to car drivers.

Tailgating is a huge problem and one I simply fail o understand as it's simply crazy,and I'll guarantee 8 times out of ten is a young woman usually younger than 25 at the wheel,the other two will usually be German prestige car drivers,usually male.
Excessive speeding is small in number IME,but with the odd lunatic driving very fast.
Mobile phone use at the wheel is a problem especially while stopped at TLs,on motorways usually spotted by car drivers tailgating HGVs in lane one.
I believe drink and drugged driving is on the increase too,which adds to danger on our roads.
Other dangerous road users are unregistered motorcyclists,no reg plates etc,and the occasional dangerous cyclist.

I usually drive/ride outside of the 'three hour rush' at either end of the working day but when I am caught or forced to drive/ride in it,I'm appalled at the risks drivers are prepared to take to save themselves what can only amount to at most a few minutes and more often than not no time saved at all as most are racing to the next TL or traffic jam.

My 2d's worth

PS,I've not watched the program in question.

[Stevek76]

Eh, weird, I'd flipped through the 2020 dft summary to check before posting back on page 1, must have been focusing on the ksi rate, not the fatality rate.

The latter has indeed risen slightly (driven by car fatality rate by the looks of it), but only for 2020 and still lower than 2017 and every previous year. Given 2020's rather unique status I think it's still fair to say that to claim it's 'now rising' is very hyperbolic (particularly as the provisional estimates for year ending June 2021, published in November indicate a drop from the previous year)

As previously, I'm in no way suggesting that road safety is good enough, it's not close. But I'm not sure clickbaity programming is really much use.

[Pete Owens]

Yes, it does look as if the 2019-2020 difference was cherry picked to give an alarming picture.

To be fair, the broader context was mentionned in the programme. Basically the sustained improvement under the previous government has levelled off - so you would expect to see increases some years and decreases in others. Edmund King had it spot on when he pointed out that if we want to see safer roads then the government has to reintroduce targets.

[thirdcrank]

Yes, it does look as if the 2019-2020 difference was cherry picked to give an alarming picture.

To be fair, the broader context was mentionned in the programme. Basically the sustained improvement under the previous government has levelled off - so you would expect to see increases some years and decreases in others. Edmund King had it spot on when he pointed out that if we want to see safer roads then the government has to reintroduce targets.

Here's the AA media release quoting EK. It's not short, but it makes a lot of important points. (AA = Automobile Association)

‘We need more cops in cars’ is the strong message pushed by the AA president in response to death rates on UK roads plateauing over the last decade, after previously declining for thirty years, and the rate of deaths increasing by 5% in 2020. This subject will be fully investigated tonight in a hard-hitting BBC Panorama investigation.

Edmund King OBE, AA president who contributes to the programme, said: “It is tragic that road deaths have plateaued over the last decade after a period of sharp decline. These deaths are totally unnecessary and should not be happening. We have safer vehicles; we should have safer roads and safer drivers. It is a scandal that five people per day die on our roads. This is totally unacceptable.

“We rightly hear much about tragic loss of life due to knife crime and yet almost eight times as many people are killed on the roads every single year than die from knife crime. *We cannot continue in this way. There should be a national commitment from the Prime Minister down to end this carnage.”

A Freedom of Information request by BBC Panorama, answered by 26 out of 44 forces, reveals that almost half of their fixed speed cameras are not working. Of 1092 fixed speed cameras, 523 are inactive. Wiltshire Police reported that they have no fixed or mobile cameras but just rely on handheld cameras.

Some areas – like North Yorkshire, Durham, and Northamptonshire – have no fixed speed cameras working at all. Some of the cameras started to be switched off 10 years ago when funding arrangements were changed, and they became too expensive to replace.

King added: “Our Yonder driver surveys over the last decade show an 80% plus acceptance rate for speed cameras from drivers yet the situation today is a total postcode lottery.

“Speed cameras are effective in reducing speeding but are only one part of the armoury and do nothing to deter drink, drugged and other forms of dangerous driving.

“We need a concerted effort to reduce road deaths and often basic measures like more road markings or improved junctions can help.

“But ultimately, we need five-star drivers, in five-star cars, on five-star roads, with five-star enforcement and five-star political commitment to reduce road deaths.”

Recent AA Yonder surveys** show that more people appear to believe that it's becoming easier to get away with motoring offences which must be down to a reduction in dedicated traffic police.

More than one in four (26%) say that in their area, there's little or no chance of being stopped and punished for drink driving, or for speeding.
More than four in ten (42%) says there's little or no chance of being stopped and punished for driving while using a handheld mobile phone.
More than half (52%) says little or no chance of being stopped for careless driving.
A report from the Police Foundation, ‘The Future of Roads Policing’, due to be published next month is expected to analyse the reduction in numbers of dedicated traffic officers. Between 2010 and 2014 numbers of dedicated traffic officers fell by 22 per cent and between 2015 and 2019, numbers fell by a further 18 per cent. It will also recommend that roads policing should be included in the Strategic Policing Requirement (SPR) to make it a national priority so that the Home Office, police forces and Chief Constables are more visibly accountable for policing our roads. This recommendation is fully supported by the AA and DriveTech.

Another FOI request by Panorama provided answers consistent with the Police Foundation’s figures. Thirty-four of 44 forces confirm that in 2016, they employed 5,014 dedicated traffic officers; today that figure is down to 4,257 - a cut of 757 dedicated traffic cops; 15% in five years.

King concludes: “This leads to the conclusion that ‘cops in cars’ are essential. We have seen a correlation between plateauing road deaths and the decline in the number of dedicated road traffic officers. If some people think they will get away with motoring offences, they will take more chances.

“We should reverse this decline as traffic police are needed in this national crisis with five people dying on our roads daily. This is not acceptable on any level. The bonus, as well as saving lives on the road, is that more traffic police can lead to a reduction in general serious crime as serious criminal offenders are more likely to also be serious traffic offenders.” ***

https://www.theaa.com/about-us/newsroom ... ps-in-cars

PS I did check the Cuk www for "Panorama" but no mention of this programme.

[robing]

A suitable parallel might be the distinction made in accident investigation across a number of sectors between "primary cause" and "contributing factors".

So it would be perfectly possible for a road accident to have a primary cause of driver error (incompetence, inattention, lack of skill/judgement, etc) but with a contributory factor being road design/maintenance/etc.

In the past two years I've driven a car and ridden a motorcycle 40,000miles,between 50 and 60% of that has been on motorways that's slightly above normal annual mileage for me,but not by much.
I have ridden a bicycle on the road very little in that time.

My observation is that a lack of consideration,impatience and lack of attention of traffic conditions are the most likely the primary cause of danger on UK roads.
Bad road design is a very small part of that danger,"signage overload" in connection to driver inattention and impatience can be a problem though,but it's small IMObservation.
Road condition,bad surfaces,uneven ironworks,potholes and loose gravel etc can present problems for two wheelers though less of a challenge to car drivers.

Tailgating is a huge problem and one I simply fail o understand as it's simply crazy,and I'll guarantee 8 times out of ten is a young woman usually younger than 25 at the wheel,the other two will usually be German prestige car drivers,usually male.
Excessive speeding is small in number IME,but with the odd lunatic driving very fast.
Mobile phone use at the wheel is a problem especially while stopped at TLs,on motorways usually spotted by car drivers tailgating HGVs in lane one.
I believe drink and drugged driving is on the increase too,which adds to danger on our roads.
Other dangerous road users are unregistered motorcyclists,no reg plates etc,and the occasional dangerous cyclist.

I usually drive/ride outside of the 'three hour rush' at either end of the working day but when I am caught or forced to drive/ride in it,I'm appalled at the risks drivers are prepared to take to save themselves what can only amount to at most a few minutes and more often than not no time saved at all as most are racing to the next TL or traffic jam.

My 2d's worth

PS,I've not watched the program in question.

Agree with all of the above - particularly

"My observation is that a lack of consideration,impatience and lack of attention of traffic conditions are the most likely the primary cause of danger on UK roads."

Tailgaiting

and excessive speed for the conditions.

[thirdcrank]

This isn't from the programme but it's based on a couple of recent media releases from the campaigning arms of the AA and RAC, which illustrate my enforcement hobbyhorse. The first is

One in six speeding offences ‘cancelled’

https://www.racfoundation.org/media-cen ... -cancelled

The inevitable focus of media attention was the possibility of duff cameras but the other possibilities including cloned vehicles and the police lacking the resources to prosecute what ought to be straightforward cases seems seem significant to me.

Buried in there is a link to some of the data used including the numbers of different "traffic offences" dealt with

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-conten ... b_2022.pdf

Speeding offences made up 86% of total motoring-related offences in 2020-21

Page 2 of that PDF has a table on a force-by-force basis. eg In Lincolnshire 99% of speeding offences were detected by camera and speeding represented 98% of "motoring offences." I picked Lincolnshire because a quick check suggested it appeared to be the force with the smallest % of non-speeding detections but the broad picture is similar. ie Speed cameras now represent by far the greater part of traffic enforcement.

Now, a million uninsured drivers calculated to be on the road, is an estimate I see bandied about, based afaik on the extent of uninsured driver claims settled by the MIB eg

How Many Drivers Are Not Insured in the UK?

https://forcescompare.uk/guides/how-man ... in-the-uk/

Last but not least:

2020 saw jump in number of provisional licence holders caught without insurance

https://media.rac.co.uk/pressreleases/2 ... ce-3161016

Included in this is the number of drivers detected in 2020 without insurance - 105,641 - a small fraction of that estimated million. Then, there's the main point of the article that it seems a growing proportion of provisional licence holders - who may be the younger drivers - are uninsured.

[simonhill]

Interesting info. There should be a sticky of useful info. Certainly for me when I write to my local paper and like to have a few facts to quote against the pro car anti bike lobby.

One section of the BBC program was not only that speeding was mainly enforced by cameras, but that a lot were old and obsolete and many were not working. They quoted Wiltshire that had ALL its cameras turned off at the time of their FOI enquiry.

[reohn2]

It boils down to the fact that drivers break the law more to a greater or lesser extent if they think they're likely to remain undetected ie; while the cat's away the mice will play.

On an observational point,it never fails to amaze me how many cars I see with illegal reg plates,either stylised script or vanity plates without spaces,etc,on a very regular basis
It also comes as no surprise to me how many cars are being driving around with false plates.A git of a neighbour who was reported on a number of occasions for driving with false plates which included one car with diplomatic plates from the DRC and two other cars with different plates front to rear.It took three years before he was caught despite continually being reported him by neighbours.
Another point is that it's the easiest thing in the world to clone a car by simply spotting another car of the same make,model and colour in another part of the country,noting the reg plate number and having similar plates made up by some dodgey back street forger.
Driving it on the road,ANPR will pick it up as legal and if the driver is snapped for speeding the true owner gets the NIP in the post.The criminal needn't have a driving licence,MOT,VED or insurance and could be driving around for years.

It's all too easy for the crminal element with a practically nonexistent police force.

[thirdcrank]

... There should be a sticky of useful info. ...

One problem with that is there's no system for updating it, unless you think somebody else should be doing it. (As an example, there's already two "Too good to lose" sections of the forum and in the non-technical, there's one from me "Instructing a lawyer" which I created with a couple of links to what was then sound advice, but all now out-of-date.)

I'd suggest anybody wanting to keep things like my RAC links above for reference should use their own favourites bar (if that's the correct term.)
=====================================================================

PS While reviewing my own links above, I came across this in the RAC stuff

Thousands of motorists win back £2m in speeding fines as traffic cops get it wrong

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... m-25009514

Analysing the spin isn't easy, but my impression is the highwaymen in the form of National Highways set up a temporary speed limit at road works on the A1, complete with average speed cameras, but they somehow cocked up on the temporary speed limit order and the police purported to enforce that. This just reinforces my previously asserted opinion that the relevant traffic authority should be responsible for things like speed enforcement from start to finish.

[MikeF]

From Highways England

"We want to make sure all our major roads are dependable, durable and, most importantly,
safe."

and

"National Highways manage and improve England’s motorways and major A-roads, helping our customers have safer, smoother and more reliable journeys."

Seems they are convinced roads are the problem!

[mattheus]

"customers" ?!?

Jeepers creepers ...

[reohn2]

Our roads are in a diabolical state including motorways and A roads.

B roads and smaller are in a terribly dilapidated state,there are some truly dangerous minor roads due to the total lack of maintenance and when maintenance is carried out it's substandard to a truly awful extent,especially for anyone riding any type of two wheeled vehicle.
It's what you get when central government slash LAs budgets by half

[Slowtwitch]

If roads were less safe surely the deaths would be going up exponentially, that's not the case though is it?