Active Travel England - Boardman

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by Vorpal »

several similar topics merged
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Boardman to be Active Travel Commissioner

Post by Stevek76 »

mattsccm wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 6:14pm My comment about presumed liability was ill worded. That has been muttered about for ages and was meant as an indication of a tiny fraction of my suggestions. Personally I would be bunging life sentences on anyone who even injures through their driving . No excuse for being stupid.
Making it less than draconion is just gearing up to fail.
There's three issues with that:

1) Harsh punishments don't really supress offending rates - see US (also see hierarchy of controls for HSE, there's a good reason administrative controls are only one step above PPE)
2) Juries will refuse to convict
3) Such sentences would be massively out of line with equivalents for injuries via any other means, particularly at equivalent levels of culpabilities which, for better or worse, has a big weight in our justice system.

Criminalising people for being incompetent at something the society they live in places a high value on them being able to do and lets them do without adequate controls is not going to be seen as 'fair' in the eyes of most.

That said I would like to see far lengthier bans and for the control over driving licenses to be entirely disconnected from the criminal justice system. An independent body with the power to suspend and revoke licenses with a clear set of standards would be far better for this.
Carlton green wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 7:00pm Presumed liability is a better way to go than we currently have. However all of us have seen some cyclists and some pedestrians do ridiculously dangerous and stupid things so a balanced approach is needed.
Presumed liability has never been a carte blanche, it's a widely misunderstood thing and, for the most part, totally irrelevant as to the success of cycling in the netherlands.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Boardman to be Active Travel Commissioner

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 10:42am
mattsccm wrote: 23 Jan 2022, 6:14pm My comment about presumed liability was ill worded. That has been muttered about for ages and was meant as an indication of a tiny fraction of my suggestions. Personally I would be bunging life sentences on anyone who even injures through their driving . No excuse for being stupid.
Making it less than draconion is just gearing up to fail.
There's three issues with that:

1) Harsh punishments don't really supress offending rates - see US (also see hierarchy of controls for HSE, there's a good reason administrative controls are only one step above PPE)
2) Juries will refuse to convict
3) Such sentences would be massively out of line with equivalents for injuries via any other means, particularly at equivalent levels of culpabilities which, for better or worse, has a big weight in our justice system.

Criminalising people for being incompetent at something the society they live in places a high value on them being able to do and lets them do without adequate controls is not going to be seen as 'fair' in the eyes of most.

That said I would like to see far lengthier bans and for the control over driving licenses to be entirely disconnected from the criminal justice system. An independent body with the power to suspend and revoke licenses with a clear set of standards would be far better for this.
Yes.

Just one addition: in some cases the administrative process will need to set off a criminal prosecution.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by Jdsk »

But I don't expect this to be a major part of the work of Active Travel England.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Boardman to be Active Travel Commissioner

Post by thirdcrank »

mattheus wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 3:08pm
mattsccm wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 2:15pm The very first things that needs doing won't be done by CB. It won't be done at all as it means forcing the motoring public to behave properly. The carrot will work for a few but a whopping big stick is the only thing that works. Presumed liability,
Here you go:
"
Chris Boardman calls for presumed liability law to help get more people commuting by bike. Chris Boardman has urged the government to introduce a system of presumed liability, similar to that operating across most of Europe, to help get more people commuting by bike once lockdown ends.25 May 2020
"
One thing seems certain: whatever powers are given to the Active Travel Commissioner - and I hope they are extensive and with strong support for their use - the remit isn't going to extend to modifying our civil legal system ie compo.

Chris Boardman's views on things like this may confirm he's a great guy, but that's it.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by thirdcrank »

It's occurred to me that one area in which an active Active Travel Commissioner could make a difference is in the professional training and qualifications of highwaymen eg when traffic authorities submit bids, success could be conditional on employing suitably qualified personnel, not getting the bunce and then marginalising the active travel. Traffic authorities lacking qualified people should be named and shamed. I'm not going to dig out the wording but professional training was one of the policies in the Notional Cycling Strategy. Some forum members may remember the Huppert Charade which took evidence from a senior highwayman who said they didn't receive training in provision for cyclists.

Then, writing this has reminded me of Cycle Audit and Review which should by now have already solved many of the problems Commissioner Boardman has to tackle, had it not been stifled at birth by the highwaymen.
ChrisButch
Posts: 1188
Joined: 24 Feb 2009, 12:10pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by ChrisButch »

thirdcrank wrote: 25 Jan 2022, 4:58pm It's occurred to me that one area in which an active Active Travel Commissioner could make a difference is in the professional training and qualifications of highwaymen eg when traffic authorities submit bids, success could be conditional on employing suitably qualified personnel, not getting the bunce and then marginalising the active travel.
This is where I would hope (being ever the optimist) that the critical mass factor creeps in - the more cyclists in the population, the greater the probability that there will be cycling highwaymen who will influence behaviour and attitudes in their profession. You already see some evidence of this in the police (would the Close Pass Initiative have happened had it not been driven by cycling policemen? I doubt it). It's easy to map the same aspiration on to planning officers, housebuilders, lawyers, jurypersons, judges, elected members of local and national government, even, dare I say it, Prime Ministers...
But then I've been thinking that for a good decade or two..
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by Jdsk »

Chief Executive... still time to apply:
https://www.civilservicejobs.service.go ... de=1768018

Jonathan
MikeF
Posts: 4339
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by MikeF »

The Government document doesn't convince me that much will happen. It is a "tinkering at the edges" job without commitment to providing anything. Same old waffle that County Councils have been churning out for years to "encourage" people to use "active travel" rather than motor vehicles, but without actually building anything. For example It's no good providing cycle facilities at stations if cycling to the station is the main problem. All new housing etc in our area has to have cycle parking/storage, but there isn't anywhere that most of these people would feel confident cycling.

The money being quoted is "pennies".

One of the simplest and cheapest things that could be done to promote "active travel" over car use is to reduce the time pedestrians (and cyclists using the crossing) 10 secs? have to wait at light controlled crossings. All ones near me now have had the time extended to 30 seconds and some regardless of motor traffic flow.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
MikeF
Posts: 4339
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by MikeF »

"but the vast majority of roads where cycle facilities are most needed and can be of greatest use – including
nearly all main roads, side streets, parks and green spaces in towns and cities – are owned by local authorities." -page 30

Wrong!!! Most roads are not owned by local authorities, although there may be a few sections of ownership where councils have bought the land. Most roads are public rights of way ie Public Highways, and, as such, are maintained as highways by local authorities.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by ratherbeintobago »

Meanwhile in York, the city where ATE is to be based.
MikeF
Posts: 4339
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by MikeF »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 12 Feb 2022, 10:35am Meanwhile in York, the city where ATE is to be based.
Indeed!The result of "empowering and encouraging" local authorities, without actually committing them to doing something.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by Pete Owens »

It seems that some here seem to think that John Prescot was right to measure progress by miles of farcility installed.
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Active Travel England - Boardman

Post by ratherbeintobago »

Pete Owens wrote: 12 Feb 2022, 9:00pm It seems that some here seem to think that John Prescot was right to measure progress by miles of farcility installed.
Well, when you live in a borough where that’s a round number…
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Active Travel England

Post by Jdsk »

"Sir Chris Whitty wants more people cycling as the Chancellor ignores active travel"

"As the Chancellor outlined a Spring Statement that looked backwards, the government’s chief medical officer outlined a vision for the future which would get people moving. Cycling UK’s Sam Jones considers the difference in their two approaches"

https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/sir-c ... ive-travel

Jonathan
Post Reply