tyre suspension effect (from Are touring bikes old fashioned)

[jimlews]

In going on about his 531 forks, i think @jimlews has inadvertently answered some of the OP's original question:

Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Well yes and no - they've largely been ignored by the mainstream bike industry so they've been mostly immune to the fads and fashions and whims of the trade. The fact that the niche has mostly been filled by much smaller manufacturers and individual custom builders means they've stayed largely true to their roots but part of that is because the riders themselves have a very old-fashioned / traditional viewpoint - after all if you've been touring for years on a comfortable 531 steel bike that's carried you trouble free across continents, why would you ever feel the need to buy something newer?

Everything is focussed on comfort and reliability. The mainstream trends of lighter / faster / more aero simply don't apply and the mindset of the touring rider is very different - they want simplicity and reliability so they've never really been interested in buying the latest shiny new must-have or top end kit.

That does also have a downside though because you end up in a bit of a rut of traditionalist thinking and a refusal to consider new things because "we've always done it this way".

I agree with the above.

I'm not sure about the "inadvertently" bit, though.

As to touring bikes being 'old fashioned' - why that is just one of their many virtues.

[djb]

Thank you, my neck feels better.

Hey, what is that click mount on the front of your seatpost for?

It's my saddle bag support - it should be facing the rear of the bike, but I had to tighten the seat clamp, and needed to move it out of the way

Ahhh, makes sense. I figured it was an attachment point, but talk about a crotch grabber, especially with a bag on it!

[m-gineering]

Are touring bikes old fashioned?

Well yes and no - they've largely been ignored by the mainstream bike industry so they've been mostly immune to the fads and fashions and whims of the trade.

As far as the bike industry is concerned that is the problem with tourists. There is a large portion of people with racing bikes who ride in groups and thus are pretty susceptible to groupthink. They can't tell the difference between a steel or a titanium frame, but they know shiny and will happily buy the latest kit again and again because that what you do to keep up. Tourists being more solitary are less concerned with fashion and happy with stuff which works or worked in the past or are sticking to the bike which has served them well.. Doesn't mean they are immune to current trends, like disks, wide rims, wide tyres, Pinion, Rohloff, Gates, USB chargers etc but it is a specialist market

[willem jongman]

In my view the trend towards larger wheels originates in the preponderance of western male riders who are able and willing to spend big money. By and large these are on average far taller than female and non-western riders. Tourers have moved to far fatter tyres than in the past, and for good reasons, so the disadvantages of larger wheel sizes have become even more relevant for many riders, but not for the tall white males who are the big spenders.
At 177 cm I am quite average for my age cohort in the Netherlands, but I am more than pleased with my 55 mm 26 inch tyres (plus mudguards) and would not really have liked a larger wheel size, although etrto 584 would probably have worked. For shorter people the modern large wheel sizes inevitably involve a compromised geometry.
There is still a fairly wide choice in 26 inch tyres, but Schwalbe sadly discontinued my favourite Almotion in this size. I spotted it in time and stocked up, so I am fine for the next five or ten years.

[Blondie]

If you get a 700C frame with disc brakes you’ll also be able to fit smaller disc brake wheels such as 26”. As long as the clearances are not stupidly narrow.

And decrease the 'trail'
i.e. alter the steering characteristics.
Whether 'short trail' is a good or a bad thing probably depends on personal preference, of course.

not necessarily, depends on the size of the tyre.

[djb]

There is still a fairly wide choice in 26 inch tyres, but Schwalbe sadly discontinued my favourite Almotion in this size. I spotted it in time and stocked up, so I am fine for the next five or ten years.

I unfortunately had never tried the Almotion and didn't realize it waa not going to be offered in 26 anymore, so never bought any before they stopped.

[pwa]

In my view the trend towards larger wheels originates in the preponderance of western male riders who are able and willing to spend big money. By and large these are on average far taller than female and non-western riders. Tourers have moved to far fatter tyres than in the past, and for good reasons, so the disadvantages of larger wheel sizes have become even more relevant for many riders, but not for the tall white males who are the big spenders.
At 177 cm I am quite average for my age cohort in the Netherlands, but I am more than pleased with my 55 mm 26 inch tyres (plus mudguards) and would not really have liked a larger wheel size, although etrto 584 would probably have worked. For shorter people the modern large wheel sizes inevitably involve a compromised geometry.
There is still a fairly wide choice in 26 inch tyres, but Schwalbe sadly discontinued my favourite Almotion in this size. I spotted it in time and stocked up, so I am fine for the next five or ten years.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the trend towards larger wheels", at least with regard to tourers, because in the 1970s if I wanted a tourer it would come with 27" wheels, which are a little larger than the 700c wheels I currently use. My 700c wheels are smaller wheels than those I had when I was a teenager. The even smaller 26" wheels came along later when MTBs took off. It was some time later again that I started seeing them marketed as potential touring wheels. If I had to define a "traditional" tourer as having a particular wheel size, it would not be 26". That came along too late to have the word "traditional" applied to it. I have always seen 26" as an "alternative" to to the more traditional sizes, and preferred by folk who anticipate spending more time on rough tracks.

Any move towards larger sizes is among those whose idea of touring is more off-roady, and who might previously have been in the market for 26" wheels. Those of us who prefer smooth tracks and country lanes haven't been shifting from our preferred wheel size, except for a transition from 27" to 700c that came a few decades ago. And we only did that so that we could continue to access a good selection of tyres and rims.

I do take your point about shorter cyclists though. At 5'4" my wife just about gets a nice fit on 700c. If she were much shorter she would be facing compromises.

[willem jongman]

I do think touring has changed. When I was touring on a 27 inch wheeled bike in the UK in the late seventies, roads were smooth and cars were quite few and relatively slow. These days, road surfaces are worse, we often tour further away from home where roads were never smooth, and given the far busier traffic many of us have moved to smaller roads and sometimes trails. It is not something I regret, as it also gets me closer to nature, but it implied the need for bikes that borrowed more from the then new mtb bikes. We needed fatter tyres, lower gears, and better brakes. In the UK Thorn early on appreciated the changing environment, and in the Netherlands m-gineering who built me a custom bike with precisely all this in a combination of a classic steel drop bar tourer but fat tyred 26 inch wheels, hydraulic rim brakes and a Rohloff hub. I think of it as a gravel bike avant la lettre, but with enough load carrying capacity.

[pwa]

I do think touring has changed. When I was touring on a 27 inch wheeled bike in the UK in the late seventies, roads were smooth and cars were quite few and relatively slow. These days, road surfaces are worse, we often tour further away from home where roads were never smooth, and given the far busier traffic many of us have moved to smaller roads and sometimes trails. It is not something I regret, as it also gets me closer to nature, but it implied the need for bikes that borrowed more from the then new mtb bikes. We needed fatter tyres, lower gears, and better brakes. In the UK Thorn early on appreciated the changing environment, and in the Netherlands m-gineering who built me a custom bike with precisely all this in a combination of a classic steel drop bar tourer but fat tyred 26 inch wheels, hydraulic rim brakes and a Rohloff hub. I think of it as a gravel bike avant la lettre, but with enough load carrying capacity.

I am sticking mainly to narrow lanes with the occasional bit of smooth trail, and using 700c with 35mm rubber, and doing okay with that, so the "traditional" tourer can do that stuff quite nicely. What it can't do is accommodate very short cyclists. Toes touching mudguards can be a problem there.

[PH]

Some interesting reading and fork testing here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/rin ... ktest.html

[Sweep]

20220122_120757.jpg

Admittedly larger tyres may roll faster and 27.5 may look more sexy... but for shear versatility 26 will always be around...

Above is my bike with 26 inch wheels, 2 inch wide tyres and full mudguards, carrying 10kg of chicken feed in the front paniers, my dinner (carried in my new bucket) and 9 kg of assorted stuff (more chicken feed, salt lick for the horse and some new tools) carried on the rear rack without any problems to the wheels...

...and if i get bored I can always change the tyres to 1.25 inch slicks for the summer time..

I really must get the sqr block sorted...

risk of a divert cycletramp, what's the tube on the crossbar/top tube for?
Looks like padding of some sort.

[bgnukem]

Despite Chris Juden's comments, I've found the harshest front end ride on the bikes I've owned have been those fitted with front disc brakes.

It's a relevant comparison for my commuting bike, which I rode for 18-odd years with a front rim brake and three different sets of rigid forks, two of which were cheap oversized unicrown efforts, so hardly the last word in compliance or comfort, and one set of cast-crown forks I had Mercian build for me. Switching from these to a set of Surly disc-compatible forks (Disc Trucker forks) a few years ago the road shock through the bars became much worse, resulting in my having to drop the front tyre pressure to 60psi (26 x 1.3" slick tyre) to render it tolerable.

SImilarly, I have a horribly harsh front end ride on my Spa Cycles Aubisque frame, which uses a steel disc fork but is otherwise Reynolds 725. I use 32mm tyres and had to drop the front tyre to 70psi just to tolerate the ride quality.

The most comfortable ride is on my old Dawes Mean Street, which uses a 531ST Galaxy frameset with unicrown Reynolds 531 forks (and 1" steerer). The front dropouts can be seen moving laterally over bumps and even with a 32mm tyre pumped to 80psi the ride is far better than the Spa bike.

I;m sure the tyre pressure and width has a marked effect on ride quality, but so does the fork IME.

[hoogerbooger]

I've been touring and cycling for years on a double butted Cro Mo 26" mountain bike conversion with 1.75" tyres. What CJ said about the tyre damping effect, I believe. Unloaded it is naturally a bit twitchy/floppy on the steering. When I tried 1.5" tyres it was a very bumpy ride. With 1.75" tyres and 50psi it's pretty fast on semi-slicks on good to average roads. On rough/jeep tracks I sometimes lower the psi and get less bounce and more traction. by playing with the tyre pressure ( in relation to payload and surface) it's a usually a good ride...

However the lack of 36hole 26" rims with brake surfaces, seems to be the biggest obsolescence factor......

[cycle tramp]

20220122_120757.jpg

Admittedly larger tyres may roll faster and 27.5 may look more sexy... but for shear versatility 26 will always be around...

Above is my bike with 26 inch wheels, 2 inch wide tyres and full mudguards, carrying 10kg of chicken feed in the front paniers, my dinner (carried in my new bucket) and 9 kg of assorted stuff (more chicken feed, salt lick for the horse and some new tools) carried on the rear rack without any problems to the wheels...

risk of a divert cycletramp, what's the tube on the crossbar/top tube for?
Looks like padding of some sort.

Yes, it is. It was a present from my brother. It's an aftermarket crossbar protector. It's made from recycled inner tubes, and some padding. It's fitted with Velcro which means I can take it off. Given the amount of rusty metal fences, lamp posts and bollards I lean the bike against, its easier than painting the top tube every year.

[djb]

re forks, I have a 1990 era quad butted Japanese framed touring bike that has always had a nice ride feel (fork and frame flex) to it, but then again, my more recent tourer (Surly Troll) with a hefty front fork, disc brakes is also really rather comfy with the right tires and appropriate pressures.

so I'm very much in the camp of how tire choice and pressures is a big factor, despite how some forks must be more compliant than others.

another bike of mine is a recentish alu frame and carbon fork cross bike, and I really began to notice the handling improvements--specifically tire suspension effect, when I began putting less pressure in the 28 slicks on that bike and going around corners fast.
I used to motorcycle a fair amount, with a bit of track experience, so have a reasonable feel for cornering traction and general feel in corners. Bringing my 28 slicks gradually down in 5psi increments from lets say 95 or whatever, down to 80 or even less, really made the bike corner harder and more competently.

Ive noticed the same thing on my Troll touring. Using nice flexible tires, 45mm-50mm, and lower pressures, the bike handles really really well around corners, and really pushing it around corners. I've never had so much confidence in a touring bike going down mountain passes and not hanging about in the corners, and its all down to the wider tires at lower pressures, allowing the sidewalls to do their suspension thing and maintain great contact with the road.
Yes, the specific tires are a factor (Schwalbe Supremes) , but I couldnt get over how well the bike handles around corners, and this is reasonably loaded (40, 50lbs) and about 45psi rear, 42psi front with 2in tires, 50mm that measure on my rims at 45mm.