Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by ratherbeintobago »

Proposal is that vehicle users will be immune from prosecution, but the company who sought approval will face sanctions.

I’m a bit uneasy about this given that some American companies are asking for non-motorists to carry transponders. Anyone know if there’s a CUK response?

Link
djnotts
Posts: 3036
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by djnotts »

Discussion now on "Today".
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by ratherbeintobago »

djnotts wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 7:48am Discussion now on "Today".
I assume that’s going as well as always?
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by Carlton green »

I’m uneasy about such immunity. In the case of an ‘accident’ the prosecution will face a defendant with massive resource to argue against their culpability and an urgent need to do so in order to maintain commercial success. There is no easy answer here but as the driver selects his or her vehicle and decides on how it is used I think that they should remain liable and cover their financial liability via insurance companies. Insurance companies assess risk, have or have access to technical experts and have resource to take legal action against vehicle manufacturers.

It should, of course, be illegal to sell or not recall a vehicle with known faults that can result in death or injury; accountability should be both corporate and board level with fines and possibly custodial sentences too. Few things focus the mind as well as the prospect of personal penalty should sins and omissions be discovered.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by ratherbeintobago »

I assume it’s largely a kite-flying exercise at the moment, but I’d have thought this runs contrary to the work to promote active travel and that ‘vulnerable’ road user groups might have something to say.

Against that, I can’t see why geofencing to motorways isn’t workable.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by thirdcrank »

I've not listened to the programme
Always look on the bright side of life
to quote E Idle

There will inevitably be a transition period when the industry will be wooing early-adopters - the big spenders. No fun being in the most expensive car on the road if every banger driver in town can overtake with impunity. Perhaps we'll see a crackdown on bangers, starting with the estimated million uninsured vehicles. Actually that's started in a small way already with the vehicle seizure powers but that might well intensify.
Jdsk
Posts: 24635
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by Jdsk »

The Law Commission report:

"Automated Vehicles":
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/automated-vehicles/

The announcement:
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/legal-reforms ... announced/

...

The legal position clearly needs to be reviewed. This is the best way of doing it. It's enormously better than politicians leading it. There may be kite-flying to come but this isn't it.

...

This discussion is going to get very confusing if we don't separate criminal and civil liability.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by thirdcrank »

This discussion is going to get very confusing if we don't separate criminal and civil liability.
But if we do separate them, it seems reasonably clear to me.

Re criminal offences concerned with the manner of driving, then a user of a completely self-driving vehicle seems to be in a similar position to the passenger in a private hire. The owner of a vehicle must surely retain responsibility for keeping it maintained to be street-legal.

Re civil liability, they just need to decide whose compulsory third party insurance picks up the tab.

I put "completely" in italics because while the user retains any ability to override the vehicle, then there must be the possibility of their actions being treated as criminal offences.
Jdsk
Posts: 24635
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 9:45amRe civil liability, they just need to decide whose compulsory third party insurance picks up the tab.
The current position:

The Law Commissions’ recommendations build on the reforms introduced by the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018. The 2018 Act ensured that victims who suffer injury or damage from a vehicle that was driving itself will not need to prove that anyone was at fault. Instead, the insurer will compensate the victim directly.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/legal-reforms ... announced/

Jonathan
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by Stevek76 »

This seems reasonable to me (the actual details, not the sensationalist headlines).

The recommendations are generally very good, a clear hard distinction between driver assists and fully automated driving with only genuinely indecently operating vehicles qualifying as the latter, for everything else the driver remains responsible as if it were any old car.

This one as well:
The Law Commissions recommend new safeguards to stop driver assistance features from being marketed as self-driving. This would help to minimise the risk of collisions caused by members of the public thinking that they do not need to pay attention to the road while a driver assistance feature is in operation.
That one mostly aimed at Tesla I think.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by thirdcrank »

We haven't abolished Parliament yet, although Boris Johnson is doing his best to marginalise it. AIUI, the Law Commission recommends, and Parliament decides. So long as third party insurance is compulsory and the requirement is enforced, then the availability of compo is preserved. As I suggested higher up, the need to attract early adopters might be an incentive to eliminate uninsured vehicles. (I've avoided "crack down" which just means seizing and crushing a few for the telly cameras.) The big attraction to "otherwise law-abiding drivers" would be a combination of hopefully safer driving by fully-autonomous vehicles and the elimination of uninsured vehicles whose compo costs are spread across all third party policyholders would see insurance costs reined in, if not reduced.

None of this will convince anybody who does not accept that an autonomous vehicle could be as safe as a careful driver and better than an idiot
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by fastpedaller »

Putting the financial liability upon the insurers could lead to manufacturers 'taking short cuts' ? Dieselgate on a SMIDSY scale :(
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by ratherbeintobago »

fastpedaller wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 11:36am Putting the financial liability upon the insurers could lead to manufacturers 'taking short cuts' ? Dieselgate on a SMIDSY scale :(
Well, maybe. If the insurers won't insure it because it costs too much, the manufacturers won't be able to sell them.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by thirdcrank »

AIUI, insurers assess the risk before accepting it. Obviously, they can't forecast the future so there will be times when they get it wrong but over time, they have to get it right with some to spare or go bust. This is also the reason for many of the small print exclusions for things insurers cannot predict or won't try. Insurers want the business or they wouldn't have a business, but they want it on terms they understand especially so they can assess the risk. (I think an example of what I'm saying comes from life assurance in the 1980s. A friend who was in my terms a life insurance salesman - but didn't appreciate that term - said that life assurance companies were terrified by AIDS in that it was new and they had no data for their actuaries to actuariate.)
djnotts
Posts: 3036
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Self-driving car users should have immunity from offences

Post by djnotts »

"But Officer, I had just handed control back to the computer while I made a phone call and watched a movie.....it was the car that killed the child."
Post Reply