Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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2flit
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Joined: 26 Jan 2022, 6:11pm

Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by 2flit »

[img]C:\Users\John\Pictures\s-l1600[/img]

The frame is certainly built in the UK, so I thought of asking folks here if they recognize the frame builder. The seat lug is a Nervex Professional and the head tube lugs are Nervex Legere Lugs. I do not recognize the fork crown. But the fork Blades have an english lamp braze-on. The folks in France are sure it's not a French builder. I suspect the 1970's water bottle bosses were added later since the rest of the frame treatments appear to be 1960's

any thoughts???

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HooAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BoYAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HZoAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg

Does anyone recognize this frame builder
ANTONISH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by ANTONISH »

Something about the pump pegs, the cable guide on the bottom bracket and the fact that it has a brazed on front lamp bracket suggests to me that its 1950's.
I assume it was built as a touring frame as there are carrier supports on the seat stays.
It looks like a very large frame - perhaps the diagonal stays are for stiffening.
Does it have French bottom bracket and head set ? (it doesn't look original)
It's an idiosyncratic design - my guess is it's not British (or it might be :) )
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2flit
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by 2flit »

The headset is JIS !!!
The BB is not easily removable so I can't say, but suspect it is British
Alot of folks on Velo Vintage GoGo insist this is British... maybe no one wants it, haha.

Some have said....HR Morris in Walthamstow London and also Mercian 1973, and also Tom Board a frame builder from around the Portabellow Rd London, he also made frame for condor cycles.) Do You Have an opinion on any of these???


Here is more information:
frame number: 14673
there is another number underneath (53 SE217BP) which is almost certainly a postcode stamped in at some later date - probably by the police in the 80s (thanks 2ziffa for that info.)
take seatpost c. 26.8mm
head tube 36cm
BB to fork axle 61.5cm
chainstay 43 to 46cm
wheelbase 41" to 42"
seat stay to very top 26"
126mm oln rear spacing (can accommodate 130mm too)
campagnolo dropout and fork ends
tange levin NJS headset fitted.
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Mick F
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by Mick F »

If it's a Mercian, the frame number 14673 means it is frame number 146 of 1973.
My Mercian is 63386 and it was made for me so I know the facts on that. I doubt they made 633 frames in 1986, so the numbers must run through from year to year. Bought mine in October of 1986 but put the order in a couple of months before that.

Ignore all I've said if it's not a Mercian of course! :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall
thirdcrank
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by thirdcrank »

You obviously have quite a bit of knowledge about "lightweight" frame building but I'll say this at the risk of telling you how to suck eggs.

This is very obviously a UK lightweight, because nobody else made lightweights and the RH front lamp bracket is for riding on the left. So far so good. Now, many if not most lightweights were made to order so the buyer could have what their heart desired. Perhaps the nearest thing to mass-production of lightweights was somewhere like the days of the genuine Claud Butler. Some "iconic" builders had their own very identifiable features: curly stays, diadrant forks, Flying Gate style and twin seat tubes. It's suggested that those identifiable features were to get round the RTTC's ban on frame decals identifying the maker. I don't think for one moment that this is such a feature. Rather, I think a tall rider specified something to make a big frame more rigid and the result was a traditional frame of the era reinforced with the double tubes of the type used in a Mixte frame. (Ladies version of a lightweight.)

In short, I doubt if anybody will identify the frame from that unusual design, unless there's somebody who remembers a clubmate who once owned it. Some features, especially the wide (by the standards of those days) OLN suggest l later modification. The finish looks to be in a state and rather than something by Ellis Briggs "Famous for our finishes" it looks a bit like something I might do with a brush and a tin of Hammerite.
rogerzilla
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by rogerzilla »

JIS headsets are common in 70s frames, because builders often bought in ready-made forks from Tange and others. It's not difficult to cut a JIS fork down to 26.4 (I've done several) but time, presumably, was money. Also, 30.0 head tube reamers would have been more common because JIS dimensions are the same as traditional Raleigh - except the thread pitch.
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2flit
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by 2flit »

More pictures in case this helps with Identification.
Thanks for all your help!
John
Attachments
s-l1600 (5).jpg
s-l1600 (4).jpg
s-l1600 (3).jpg
s-l1600 (2).jpg
s-l1600 (1).jpg
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2flit
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Joined: 26 Jan 2022, 6:11pm

Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by 2flit »

More pictures...
Attachments
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600 (6).jpg
s-l1600 (7).jpg
s-l1600 (8).jpg
thirdcrank
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by thirdcrank »

SE21 7BP = postcode for Gilkes Crescent, Dulwich

Here's 53 - not the posher end of the street

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.45158 ... 384!8i8192
===========================================================
This may only be a coincidence, but it would be a big one, and it would be a weird frame number. The other thing is that frame numbers stamped by the builder tend to be neat and tidy, whereas an unskilled police cadet or the like gets sloppier results
=================================
Looking at the frame number in the earlier pic, that proves me wrong about neatness
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2flit
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by 2flit »

Whoa.... Maybe there is a slightly different definition of " not the posher end of the street"....

But, Thanks to your lead... I dug a bit deeper to find the sales history for that address:
The property you are viewing is located at 53 Gilkes Crescent, London SE21 7BP. This is a Property with an estimated value of £1,769,354.
Sale History- Latest Sale: £1,500,000 | Sale Date: 6th Jul 2011

There are only 99 people that reside in that postal code. I had no idea how small a segment that a British Postal Code covered. I live on a tiny rural island between Vancouver Island and the mainland and we have over 800 people in our rural code.

It would be interesting if the owner of this frame was still present. The postal code is a fairly new one.
philsknees
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Location: St. Ockport

Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by philsknees »

Possibly clutching at straws but the person who went to the trouble of commissioning that frame was likely to have been a keen cyclist and I see that the Gilkes Crescent address is under a mile from Herne Hill Velodrome...........
A request/photo on their noticeboard might stir the memories of some veteran?
thirdcrank
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by thirdcrank »

Possher = comparative here's the other end of the street.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.45371 ... 312!8i6656

Residential postcodes are normally a single street, but longer roads may be broken down into several. I presume you mean the postcoding on the bike is fairly new. The street will have had that postcode since they were introduced - around 1970(?)

Bearing in mind that owner(s) of that bike will have been well above average height so you aren't looking for one of the gnomes of Dulwich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbn6lHx47SU

If the humour didn't cross the Atlantic, the title was a pun on Harold Wilson's comment about the Gnomes of Zurich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomes_of_Z%C3%BCrich
Norman H
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by Norman H »

thirdcrank wrote: 6 Feb 2022, 8:17am SE21 7BP = postcode for Gilkes Crescent, Dulwich

Here's 53 - not the posher end of the street

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.45158 ... 384!8i8192
===========================================================
This may only be a coincidence, but it would be a big one, and it would be a weird frame number. The other thing is that frame numbers stamped by the builder tend to be neat and tidy, whereas an unskilled police cadet or the like gets sloppier results
=================================
Looking at the frame number in the earlier pic, that proves me wrong about neatness


I wonder if it's a coincidence that 53 Gilkes Crescent is just around the corner from Herne Hill Velodrome. It's possible that the previous owner was a frequent visitor and/or a member of a local cycling club.

Google gave me this but there are several other local cubs
thirdcrank
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by thirdcrank »

Bearing in mind that I live in Leeds, the human geography of London is not my specialist subject. In the era when that frame was built we had several lightweight builders within spitting distance of each other and London may have been similar.
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SimonCelsa
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Re: Helping identify frame builder 1960's or 1970's

Post by SimonCelsa »

2flit wrote: 6 Feb 2022, 9:11am

I live on a tiny rural island between Vancouver Island and the mainland and we have over 800 people in our rural code.
Nice area, was up that way in 1986 on a rusty old gas tanker taking fuel oil bunkers off Ferndale, Washington. On our way from Alaska to Long Beach. I always remember transiting the Straits of Juan de Fuca and smirking over how it could be pronounced (I was quite young at the time).

Anyhow, back to the thread, no idea of any potential frame builder. You need to find the previous owners. Could be a 7 ft tall millionaire cockney?
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