What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
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horizon
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What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by horizon »

There was time years ago that I looked at better methods of motorised touring than a car and considered a motorbike. But I looked at the possible engine and decided 600 cc could be put to better use in a Deux Chevaux, complete with open top, comfy seats and no need to wear a helmet or leathers.

Since then, I've mostly toured by bicycle but have often wondered about what's in the middle between the bicycle and a car. That was however in the days before the e-bike, so that has now thrown up possibilities. Generally I'm not interested in e-bikes because I get on perfectly well without a motor and am concerned about the downsides like cobalt mining and indeed the cost of the battery. I can however see the benefit of an ebike on a hilly commute. But when it comes to touring I'm genuinely puzzled about what I might get from an e-bike (even a simple front wheel job).

Here's my touring day:

35 miles
22 kg of camping gear (40 kg all up weight including bike)
Hills a plenty but no serious mountain stuff (on or off-road)
Winds from all directions

(I'm leaving aside for the moment any charging issues.)

I deal with both weight and hills with very low gears and the occasional walk up. I'm 68 in good health, reasonably fit and completely ambulant. I weigh 72 kg.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Jdsk
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by Jdsk »

Do you ever want to tour with someone else? Would at least one of you having an eBike enable this?

Apart from that it looks as if it might be a useful tool for the future. That's how we currently (!) think about them.

Jonathan
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horizon
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by horizon »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 5:52pm Do you ever want to tour with someone else? Would at least one of you having an eBike enable this?

Jonathan
I do consider this from time to time (for Mrs H). But it never really takes off. My 22 kg (or a little bit more) would cover all our common requirements and a comfy tent. But I never felt that I could guarantee anything other than a fairly serious physical challenge (cycling and camping) even with an e-bike.

I did do the Bosch range finder but it comes out at almost exactly what I do anyway - 35 miles with moderate effort.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Tigerbiten
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by Tigerbiten »

I could see it as a range extender.
Each transitions from flat land -> rolling countryside -> hilly terrain -> mountainous slows me down by ~2mph.
Adding another 250 watts of power from the motor would mean I'd slow down less on hills therefore my average speed would increase.
If my average speed increased by ~2mph then that would add ~12 miles to my daily distance for no extra effort.

Luck ........ :D
PH
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by PH »

horizon wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 6:15pm I did do the Bosch range finder but it comes out at almost exactly what I do anyway - 35 miles with moderate effort.
If you're already happy with what you're doing, I don't know what the question is? Will it make you happier? No.
Each to their own, I look your touring day and wonder what I'd do for the other 21 hours!
It will enable someone to go further (Or faster) with the same effort, or use less effort for the same journey. The top motors can offer over 300% support*, I'm guessing that means it senses your effort and adds three times as much from the motor.
I replaced my delivery bike with an E-bike, plus an extra battery so I can take it easy. My average speed has hardly increased, but I no longer dread when a delivery is two miles uphill (For the forth time that day) and I no longer go home knackered at the end of a busy day.

Hopefully we're moving away from the notion that they're for people who need one. The MTB world seems to be leading the way with this, plenty of fit and able riders enjoy fast technical downhill but not the boring slog back up again, they're choosing a motor for more fun.

For myself, I'm not likely to chose one for touring, I enjoy the simplicity and the physical challenge, if I stopped enjoying that I'd look for something else which might be an ebike, but it's more likely I'd choose something completely different.

* Support levels for the different Bosch motors can be found here:
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/drive-unit
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horizon
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by horizon »

PH: thank you for that.
Hopefully we're moving away from the notion that they're for people who need one.
I do need one, or rather I do need some motive power to cycle tour. This is either a train, bus or plane to take me to the start of my tour or a train to complete a certain distance on a particular day which would be out of my range. Ideally I would have enough days to complete the distance I want to do but that isn't always possible. The alternative is to do it by car.

I wondered whether an e-bike would materially change that equation but I am not sure it would.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
PH
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by PH »

horizon wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 11:13am PH: thank you for that.
I wondered whether an e-bike would materially change that equation but I am not sure it would.
The definition of "materially" will be your own, no one else can give you a definitive answer to that, you have to suck it and see. I don't even know how I'd accurately measure it for myself. I'd say using Tour mode predominantly and Sport for hills (The 2nd and 3rd Setting) on a Bosch CX motor, with a 500wh battery, on mixed urban terrain (So lots of stop/start), with 120kg total load (inc bike), I get an average of 45 miles, rarely putting in more effort than walking, but it's a guess. Or for another comparison - Hills that on an unassisted bike have me breathing heavily climbing at 8mph in a 20" gear, I can be climb on my ebike without the heavy breathing, at 14mph in a 60" gear. Or another - If I use a HRM and a calorie converter (Both of which are blunt tools for the task, so I'm not claiming accuracy) it reads less than half the calories burnt for a similar day.
Why not try one? Spoilt for choice in Cornwall:
https://www.visitcornwall.com/things-to ... cycle-hire

If you were closer to Derby (And 6'+) you'd be welcome to borrow mine for a day.
mattsccm
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by mattsccm »

Bugger all. If that sort of distance is too much prune some kit. If you are unhealthy you may gain but other wise, why bother? Thats not much more than walking pace for a medium to reasonable length day. Chuck in stops and it is no worries. You are not in need of help yet.
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horizon
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by horizon »

mattsccm wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 8:04pm Bugger all. If that sort of distance is too much prune some kit. If you are unhealthy you may gain but other wise, why bother? Thats not much more than walking pace for a medium to reasonable length day. Chuck in stops and it is no worries. You are not in need of help yet.
You're right, what I currently do on a heavily loaded camping tour isn't actually difficult. Most of the day is spent eating breakfast, visiting towns and generally wafting through the countryside. In fact, some people might not even consider it cycle touring - more camping by bicycle perhaps.

The issue I have is what to do about long distances with lots of stuff and staying put for a while - in other words the sort of thing people might do in a campervan, most people at least in a car. I loathe travelling by car and yet the bike might not cut it for long stays in places.

What Mrs H feels about it of course is critical, but even leaving that aside, what bugs me is that there is no happy medium between going in a steel box or on a bicycle which would necessitate at least fairly minimal stuff. The closest I have come to resolving this dilemma is, as I mentioned above, a 2CV. Lots of people go by car of course and then cycle from their base but I want to experience and enjoy the journey.

Because of this e-bikes are a tantalising prospect but I cannot see one bridging the gap between bike and car. However, I'm now going to take a look at trailers and see how these might marry up with an electric motor.

This looks promising:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TsKK_yHWdw&t=40s

And this is a mine of info:

https://electricbikereport.com/guide-to ... -trailers/
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
peterb
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by peterb »

Ebike batteries need charging. That could be the biggest hassle.
jb
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by jb »

Cycle campers taking up electric hook ups could be problematic...

Not to say slightly amusing,
Cheers
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richtea99
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by richtea99 »

horizon wrote: 31 Jan 2022, 1:31am The issue I have is what to do about long distances with lots of stuff and staying put for a while - in other words the sort of thing people might do in a campervan, most people at least in a car. I loathe travelling by car and yet the bike might not cut it for long stays in places.
An electric bike isn't going to replace your need for a long-distance machine to get to the start of your tour.
It's much more about easing the actual touring itself, as others have already pointed out.

Maybe consider an electric motorbike as a halfway house to a car. There are only a few models to choose from at the moment, but assuming you don't need lots of power, and you don't mind charging say every 60 miles whilst you potter around a town.

You can spend a fortune, but right now a typical sensible-priced 60mph / 60 mile commuter is this:
https://www.supersoco.co.uk/bike/tc-max/

You can go up in power with other manufacturers (with a massive price hike) or you can go lower speed / lower range for about the price of an ebike. Some more expensive examples:
https://electric.piaggio.com/uk
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/bike-detai ... 5212926075
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al_yrpal
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by al_yrpal »

What I enjoy most about cycle touring is the gentle pace and being out in the fresh air enjoying the sights smells and sounds you dont get in a car. An ebike is just the same except the hills are no longer a challenge. The only thing against them is the necessity to charge the battery.
You need to ride an ebike for a bit to see what they are like.
I did tour a lot top down in my Triumph Stag. But its different because you get everywhere much quicker, you got petrol smells and the sounds disappear.

Try it....

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by PH »

richtea99 wrote: 1 Feb 2022, 10:00pm
horizon wrote: 31 Jan 2022, 1:31am The issue I have is what to do about long distances with lots of stuff and staying put for a while - in other words the sort of thing people might do in a campervan, most people at least in a car. I loathe travelling by car and yet the bike might not cut it for long stays in places.
An electric bike isn't going to replace your need for a long-distance machine to get to the start of your tour.
It's much more about easing the actual touring itself, as others have already pointed out.
Very much this, I'm still not sure what it is horizon is looking for, but suspect they're looking in the wrong place.
The Pedalec regulations are set to match the sort of usage an unassisted bike would achieve with more rider effort, it isn't some totally new type of vehicle.
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Re: What would be different, better or worse for touring?

Post by PH »

horizon wrote: 31 Jan 2022, 1:31am
mattsccm wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 8:04pm Bugger all. If that sort of distance is too much prune some kit. If you are unhealthy you may gain but other wise, why bother? Thats not much more than walking pace for a medium to reasonable length day. Chuck in stops and it is no worries. You are not in need of help yet.
You're right, what I currently do on a heavily loaded camping tour isn't actually difficult. Most of the day is spent eating breakfast, visiting towns and generally wafting through the countryside. In fact, some people might not even consider it cycle touring - more camping by bicycle perhaps.
IMO Cycle Touring is whatever you want it to be, or call it, it isn't for others to define. Well not beyond you being in a touring frame of mind and using a cycle.
For the type of tour above, I don't usually camp, but using a folder and public transport allows me to meander around looking at stuff, then jump on a bus/coach/train to cover the distances between.
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