Cycling UK Forum

We love our Wild Country Hoolie 3 ETC. It’s very roomy allowing us to store the kids (18+20 lol) gear in our tent or ‘entertain them in the evenings when the weather is poor. But it is on the heavy side and doesn’t pack small. As we are hoping to be going somewhere more reliable weather-wise this summer, we are seriously considering adding to the tent quiver. We also want it to be useful in this country too.

Back to the point - European tents tend to have a high HH on the fly sheet whereas the US tents don’t. I love the design of the Big Agnes and MSR tents but will they stand up to rain? Is HH a good measure or not? Any thoughts?

Thehairs1970 wrote: ↑12 Feb 2022, 3:48pmIs HH a good measure or not?

Recent discussion:
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Jonathan

You might forget about the lack of HH while dealing with the wind howling under the fly
That is I think the biggest difference between US and European designs, the prioritising of ventilation over weather protection. That may be fine, even an advantage, on your trip somewhere warmer, but it might be a compromise when you use it closer to home.

In my experience HH is a reasonable guide but its not infallible. All my camping is in northern Europe, even in summer there is a fair chance of heavy rain, i've certainly had my share over the years. My two current tents, Vaude Taurus and Power Lixard, were chosen in part because they have a good HH (7000/10000 if i recall correectly) for the fly and tub and most of the time they do the job fine. However, a perfect storm of prolonged heavy rain and strong winds can overwhelm the material, i've never got to wet pouring in but i certainly have had wet forced through and dripping or transferred onto the inner although i've stayed dry.

For most of the time what i have is overkill but i prefer that to not having sufficient protection from the elements.

As far as ventilation goes, even in 30c+ i've not had an issue, with a double skin i could even forego the inner in extremis, enough air gets through the outer's vents and under the tent edge to keep things comfortable most of the time.

If all else is equal more is better than less, though be aware not everyone is measuring quite the same thing.

But more to the point, all else is generally not equal. I work on the principle that a decent brand will make a waterproof tent, and worry about the layout most of all, then ease of pitching. I'll take silicone both sides over any PU (stronger, seems to last better in storage), try to avoid over-skinny poles, prefer alloy to carbon poles, I don't like very thin groundsheets, don't care about seam taping (it weakens the fabric, adds to weight, and I can seal them myself). I prefer two entrances to one, I like big porches but don't feel the need for an extended one (especially as I'll typically have two anyway).
With that in mind, the best way to select IMHO is crawl around examples and think how they'll work in practice. That may mean ordering a few things mail orders and posting some (maybe all!) back.

Final note, while a very thin floor can have a huge hydrostatic head it is far more prone to condensation just by being thin. If it's on cold, very wet ground you'll get a film of moisture inside, condensing out of the inner. Hydrostatic head is no help there. You can get around that with a footprint, but that's more weight and bulk.

Pete.

Another thing to add about US designs, rainfall and hydrostatic head, is it's worth noting that US designs are well used in places like Washington and Oregon which can be fabulously damp...

pjclinch wrote: ↑15 Feb 2022, 8:21am If all else is equal more is better than less, though be aware not everyone is measuring quite the same thing.

But more to the point, all else is generally not equal. I work on the principle that a decent brand will make a waterproof tent, and worry about the layout most of all, then ease of pitching. I'll take silicone both sides over any PU (stronger, seems to last better in storage), try to avoid over-skinny poles, prefer alloy to carbon poles, I don't like very thin groundsheets, don't care about seam taping (it weakens the fabric, adds to weight, and I can seal them myself). I prefer two entrances to one, I like big porches but don't feel the need for an extended one (especially as I'll typically have two anyway).
With that in mind, the best way to select IMHO is crawl around examples and think how they'll work in practice. That may mean ordering a few things mail orders and posting some (maybe all!) back.

Final note, while a very thin floor can have a huge hydrostatic head it is far more prone to condensation just by being thin. If it's on cold, very wet ground you'll get a film of moisture inside, condensing out of the inner. Hydrostatic head is no help there. You can get around that with a footprint, but that's more weight and bulk.

Pete.

Can you tell me what you use to seal the seams?, and how do you stop it sticking the fabric to itself? Does talc work to stop the sticking? Do you paint it on while the tent is up, and how long do you leave it? The time l tried with McNet seam grip it I gave it what I thought was enough time to cure, but it was still tacky enough to totally make a mess with the fabric creating and sticking all over the place. I'd like to know a good way that works.

Thanks for your replies.

I will be using a footprint whichever tent I get. Extra grams but worth it IMO.

I’ve been looking everywhere at various models and I think I can sum up my findings.

North America models seem to be much lighter but the fabrics have a low HH. Few users report this as a problem apart from MSR’s seam leak problem that they seem to have addressed. They are roomy and have lots of features to make them more liveable. Nearly all inner first.

European seem more robust with much higher HH. They are simpler in design, more expensive for similar weight and less featured.

As our palatial tent is 3.8kg, I don’t want to replace it with something of similar weight so I either pay more than I want or have something with thinner fabrics than I am currently comfortable with.

Reviews are not as helpful as you might think as most happy users don’t seem to be bothered to review. It’s interesting how some of the best selling tents end up with low review scores.

gregoryoftours wrote: ↑15 Feb 2022, 6:10pm Can you tell me what you use to seal the seams?, and how do you stop it sticking the fabric to itself? Does talc work to stop the sticking? Do you paint it on while the tent is up, and how long do you leave it? The time l tried with McNet seam grip it I gave it what I thought was enough time to cure, but it was still tacky enough to totally make a mess with the fabric creating and sticking all over the place. I'd like to know a good way that works.

My Hillebergs I've never bothered, and they never leaked anyway so no reason to do it. As the seams start to pull with age they might start letting something in, but until they do I won't bother.

My Saunders tents I did back in the day, can't remember the exact product but just went in to Tiso and bought a tube of seam sealer... Rubbed it in with my fingers, left it to dry, it did.

Note that for Silnylon flys you'll need a silicone specific product. Beyond that I'm afarid I'll have to leave you at the mercy of the Interweb, but there's usually blogs and videos for this sort of thing.

Pete.

Thehairs1970 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2022, 9:48pm
I will be using a footprint whichever tent I get. Extra grams but worth it IMO.

Depends on what you're putting it under (and indeed, over). Hilleberg's groundsheets don't generally need them IME because they're that much thicker than e.g. MSR sheets. We only use them on Hilles out of boats or cars, when weight and bulk are lesser issues, but we've had terrible condensation in the Hubba Hubba in places where a plain Hille groundsheet would have been completely fine.
Also bear in mind that, like groundsheets, footprints are not created equal (including DIY options, of course). Double thickness of crisp packet is still probably less use against condensation and wear than a Hille Black Label groundsheet even before you double it up with a footprint.

Thehairs1970 wrote:
As our palatial tent is 3.8kg, I don’t want to replace it with something of similar weight so I either pay more than I want or have something with thinner fabrics than I am currently comfortable with.

Reviews are not as helpful as you might think as most happy users don’t seem to be bothered to review. It’s interesting how some of the best selling tents end up with low review scores.

Internet reviews tend to be poor because they lack context beyond a single user, and then the nature of them means they tend to end up being either Wonderful or Terrible, where as most things are fine with the odd exceptional (either good or terrible, but usually with justifications like it cost a tenner or it cost a grand). It's really more a matter of putting your particular context against design intent and available funds. But TN/WC know what they're doing, so if you have a tent from them you broadly like there probably won't be a Magic Bullet that doesn't involve a change of capability, weight, or price.

Pete.

After what seems like a hundred years of camping, the only advice I can give you is 1) Do not buy an American tent unless using it in a non rainy Country. 2) Do not concern yourself with all this Hydrostatic head nonsense. These tents are waterproof. Buy the best that you can afford.
I used to have Hilleberg tents and nothing else. All sold. No need for expense like that.

leftpoole wrote: ↑18 Feb 2022, 12:42pm After what seems like a hundred years of camping, the only advice I can give you is 1) Do not buy an American tent unless using it in a non rainy Country. 2) Do not concern yourself with all this Hydrostatic head nonsense. These tents are waterproof. Buy the best that you can afford.
I used to have Hilleberg tents and nothing else. All sold. No need for expense like that.

Buy the best that you can afford comes back to the issue of "first, define 'Best'". Which is a game as all tents are compromises. I personally favour Hilles not because they're objectively "the best" but because it seems my particular preferences fit their design preferences better than anyone else's.
Another issue is if you buy the best tent you can afford that might mean spending less on, say, a sleeping mat which might compromise the overall goal of the nicest time overall. As with most things reliant on a range of gear, it doesn't generally make sense to really overdo one aspect if that means an adverse impact elsewhere, as you tend to end up with a weakest link problem.

Pete.

leftpoole wrote: ↑18 Feb 2022, 12:42pm After what seems like a hundred years of camping, the only advice I can give you is 1) Do not buy an American tent unless using it in a non rainy Country. 2) Do not concern yourself with all this Hydrostatic head nonsense. These tents are waterproof. Buy the best that you can afford.
I used to have Hilleberg tents and nothing else. All sold. No need for expense like that.

Re the don’t buy American tents - can you elaborate? Let’s face it, not all America is dry. The northwest and northeast are both known as wet areas. And if I should ignore HH, doesn’t this add less fuel to the fire?

Thehairs1970 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2022, 6:06pm Re the don’t buy American tents - can you elaborate? Let’s face it, not all America is dry. The northwest and northeast are both known as wet areas. And if I should ignore HH, doesn’t this add less fuel to the fire?

I think we are in the realm of Sweeping Generalisations... e.g. a Mountain Hardwear Trango and TNF Mountain 25 are American tents and will comfortably see out just about any storm that any tent will take. At the lighter end Tarptent are very well regarded (Chris Townsend has reviewed the Scarp in glowing terms, and that's used in Scotland, mostly the Cairngorms), MSR and Big Agnes are popular worldwide and are well reviewed in places where it rains as well.

Our experience of MSR Hubba and Hubba Hubba is positive, again including Scottish mountain use. I'd like all-in-one pitching, no PU on the fly and a tougher grounsheet, but those are preferences and choices, not objectively good/bad. Also, the exact same critiques can be levelled at a lot of European/British tents.

We all have our biases. I personally have never liked Terra Nova tents... but look at their track record and they clearly know what they're at and have a lot of devoted fans. One man's meat etc.

Pete.

pjclinch wrote: ↑19 Feb 2022, 10:47am

We all have our biases. I personally have never liked Terra Nova tents... but look at their track record and they clearly know what they're at and have a lot of devoted fans.

at the risk of a divert, can I ask why?