War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

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Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Apr 2022, 6:19pm Sweden and Finland have responded by applying to join NATO:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... plications
"Turkey says it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining Nato":
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... kraine-war

I'd expect that to be manageable...

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2022, 8:28pm
Jdsk wrote: 25 Apr 2022, 6:19pm Sweden and Finland have responded by applying to join NATO:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... plications
"Turkey says it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining Nato":
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... kraine-war

I'd expect that to be manageable...

Jonathan
Current Turkish Gov. does "not impress me" on quite a few issues. Maybe they should depart NATO and Sweden & Finland join instead?

Ian
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Ben@Forest »

Psamathe wrote: 16 May 2022, 9:47pm
Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2022, 8:28pm "Turkey says it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining Nato":
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... kraine-war

I'd expect that to be manageable...

Jonathan
Current Turkish Gov. does "not impress me" on quite a few issues. Maybe they should depart NATO and Sweden & Finland join instead?
But Turkey controls access to the Black Sea through the Bosporus and Dardanelles Straits and has already invoked a convention, which doesn't allow vessels of war belonging to belligerent powers to pass through the straits. Ships with home ports in the Black Sea are exceptions. But it means no reinforcements for the Russian Black Sea fleet.
ossie
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Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by ossie »

Psamathe wrote: 16 May 2022, 9:47pm
Current Turkish Gov. does "not impress me" on quite a few issues. Maybe they should depart NATO and Sweden & Finland join instead?

Ian
I agree about the issues but strategically in relation to the middle east they've been paramount and will continue to be so. Likewise they're holding a few cards in relation to this conflict so we need to make this work.
Pebble
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Pebble »

I think he is just posturing, he will be after a favour or two then he will agree.
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Ben@Forest »

Pebble wrote: 16 May 2022, 11:37pm I think he is just posturing, he will be after a favour or two then he will agree.
Yes, America wouldn't sell Turkey F-35s after they bought the S-400 Russian air defence systems. What's the betting a few F-35s will sweeten the deal?
pwa
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pwa »

Sweden and Finland need to provide assurances to Turkey that they will investigate Kurdish groups within their territories and clamp down on any found to be in any way facilitating violent activity within Turkey's internationally recognised borders.
DaveReading
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by DaveReading »

Ben@Forest wrote: 17 May 2022, 5:58am
Pebble wrote: 16 May 2022, 11:37pm I think he is just posturing, he will be after a favour or two then he will agree.
Yes, America wouldn't sell Turkey F-35s after they bought the S-400 Russian air defence systems. What's the betting a few F-35s will sweeten the deal?
Turkey is going to be heavily leant on, if necessary, by the USA. But that won't involve selling them F-35s.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 5 Apr 2022, 8:12am
Ben@Forest wrote: 5 Apr 2022, 7:05am Meanwhile the German president has admitted he got things badly wrong:

Germany's president Frank-Walter Steinmeier, long an advocate of Western rapprochement with Russia, has expressed regret for his support of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

Steinmeier, a Social Democrat who served as foreign minister under Chancellor Angela Merkel before being elevated to the presidency, said Russia's invasion of Ukraine meant some hard truths.

"My adherence to Nord Stream 2 was clearly a mistake," he said. "We were sticking to a bridge in which Russia no longer believed and which other partners had warned us against."

Steinmeier was a prominent member of a wing of his Social Democratic Party that argued close economic ties to Russia were a way of anchoring it within a western-oriented global system.
At least he's admitted being wrong,which is more than can be said for the UK government.
"REPowerEU is the European Commission’s plan to make Europe independent from Russian fossil fuels well before 2030, in light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine."
https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/prio ... -europe_en

Jonathan
Ben@Forest
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Ben@Forest »

reohn2 wrote: 5 Apr 2022, 8:12am
Ben@Forest wrote: 5 Apr 2022, 7:05am Meanwhile the German president has admitted he got things badly wrong...
At least he's admitted being wrong,which is more than can be said for the UK government.
Interesting that the last comment on here was 18th May. How quickly the most cataclysmic event in Europe since WW2 becomes normalised.

In the last two days both Merkel and Schröder have refused to apologise for their Russia policy - and in Schröder's case his extensive business interests in Russian gas and oil.

Steinmeier's apology meant nothing really in political terms. The German president has very few powers, he is not really that important, he (and to date it has always been a he) has no real power in the executive part of the government. He does have a right to veto but he can't really stop any laws. It's a bit like Prince William apologising for slavery, nice maybe but means nothing in practice.
Nearholmer
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Nearholmer »

Interesting that the last comment on here was 18th May. How quickly the most cataclysmic event in Europe since WW2 becomes normalised.
That’s one possible reason for silence, but I wonder whether some others might feel as I do: totally aghast at what Russia has unleashed on Ukraine, and unable to think of anything to contribute that wouldn’t be trite and/or founded in deep ignorance/innocence of matters of such gravity.

It’s easy to whack the Germans, but our own recent history, in providing a cosy nest for oligarchs and a safe place for their stolen gold, is deeply suspect, and if you look at the actions of numerous other countries they too betray a failure to foresee that they were creating the environment in which Putin could perceive that he could grab Ukraine with impunity. Perhaps the entire leadership of the western world should issue a humble apology? But, what that would achieve I have no idea. They’ve already learned their lesson, the very hard way.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 3:11pm
Interesting that the last comment on here was 18th May. How quickly the most cataclysmic event in Europe since WW2 becomes normalised.
That’s one possible reason for silence, but I wonder whether some others might feel as I do: totally aghast at what Russia has unleashed on Ukraine, and unable to think of anything to contribute that wouldn’t be trite and/or founded in deep ignorance/innocence of matters of such gravity.
it doesn't feel "normalised" to me.

Universities and Colleges are funding students and research posts for Ukrainians.

And the refugees from Ukraine have just arrived in our village. Many people have stepped up to help in many different ways.

Jonathan
Ben@Forest
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Ben@Forest »

Nearholmer wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 3:11pm
Interesting that the last comment on here was 18th May. How quickly the most cataclysmic event in Europe since WW2 becomes normalised.
It’s easy to whack the Germans, but our own recent history, in providing a cosy nest for oligarchs and a safe place for their stolen gold, is deeply suspect, and if you look at the actions of numerous other countries they too betray a failure to foresee that they were creating the environment in which Putin could perceive that he could grab Ukraine with impunity. Perhaps the entire leadership of the western world should issue a humble apology? But, what that would achieve I have no idea. They’ve already learned their lesson, the very hard way.
Germany is in a couple of ways exclusively culpable. They were warned not to make themselves dependent on Russian gas and oil by many parties (initially they promised never to be dependent on more than 10% gas/oil supplied by the then Soviet Union). They had a foreign policy which, partly owing to WW2 guilt, favoured Russia over countries like Ukraine and Belarus although those countries suffered more proportionally because of Nazi Germany than Russia did.

The UK being a playground for Russian oligarchs is (or was?) distasteful. However it in no way compares to the way Germany has traded with Russia in the last 20 years. In fact it in no way compares with the fact that every day since this war started Germany has paid Russia around $200 million a day for gas and oil.
reohn2
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 1:44pm

Interesting that the last comment on here was 18th May. How quickly the most cataclysmic event in Europe since WW2 becomes normalised.......
Nothing normalised about it from my POV,some of us are still contributing to the Ukrainian fight for freedom by helping refugees from the atrocities wrought by Russia/Putin on a sovereign nation.

As for Germany,the less said the better IMHO. :?
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Carlton green
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Carlton green »

Ben@Forest wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 3:58pm
Germany is in a couple of ways exclusively culpable. They were warned not to make themselves dependent on Russian gas and oil by many parties (initially they promised never to be dependent on more than 10% gas/oil supplied by the then Soviet Union). They had a foreign policy which, partly owing to WW2 guilt, favoured Russia over countries like Ukraine and Belarus although those countries suffered more proportionally because of Nazi Germany than Russia did.

The UK being a playground for Russian oligarchs is (or was?) distasteful. However it in no way compares to the way Germany has traded with Russia in the last 20 years. In fact it in no way compares with the fact that every day since this war started Germany has paid Russia around $200 million a day for gas and oil.
I can well believe the figure but a reference source would be good, please.

Germany is not alone in being suckered onto Russian fuel dependency and Russia must be very pleased to literally have its neighbours over a barrel. I wonder both how much more independence Germany would have if it still had Nuclear Power and who funded the protests leading to its removal … Russia has been thinking strategically for many years and we in the West don’t look beyond the next get rich quick deal.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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