War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

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slowster
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by slowster »

Francis Scarr of BBC Monitoring is providing an insight into how the war is being presented in russian media at https://twitter.com/francis_scarr (it is not necessary to sign up to Twitter to access it).

One of his latest tweets links to a documentary on Youtube that is well worth watching:
I'm often asked on here if Russians really believe what they watch on state TV

This outstanding documentary by journalist Andrei Loshak (now with English subtitles) has the best answer to that question that you'll get anywhere

Absolutely watch it
NB It might be necessary to turn on the English subtitles if they do not appear automatically.

reohn2
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by reohn2 »

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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 11:52am
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jun 2022, 3:56pm The EU and Ukraine:

Euromaidan in 2013:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

The 2014 Association Agreement
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... eement.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _Agreement

EU support to Ukraine in response to the Russian invasion:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... FS_22_3862

"The European Commission recommends to Council confirming Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia's perspective to become members of the EU and provides its opinion on granting them candidate status":
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_22_3790
And the next step...

"Invitation letter by President Charles Michel to the members of the European Council ahead of their meeting on 23 and 24 June 2022":
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... june-2022/
includes:

"Now is the time to acknowledge that the future of Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia lies within the EU. I will invite you to grant candidate status to Ukraine and Moldova. In parallel, we will continue to provide Ukraine with strong humanitarian, military, economic and financial support."
And the European Parliament:
"With 529 votes to 45 and 14 abstentions, Parliament adopted on Thursday a resolution calling on the Heads of State or Government -who hold their summit today and tomorrow - to grant EU candidate status to Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova “without delay”."
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... eps-demand

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 12:50pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 11:52am
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jun 2022, 3:56pm The EU and Ukraine:

Euromaidan in 2013:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

The 2014 Association Agreement
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... eement.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _Agreement

EU support to Ukraine in response to the Russian invasion:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... FS_22_3862

"The European Commission recommends to Council confirming Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia's perspective to become members of the EU and provides its opinion on granting them candidate status":
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_22_3790
And the next step...

"Invitation letter by President Charles Michel to the members of the European Council ahead of their meeting on 23 and 24 June 2022":
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... june-2022/
includes:

"Now is the time to acknowledge that the future of Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia lies within the EU. I will invite you to grant candidate status to Ukraine and Moldova. In parallel, we will continue to provide Ukraine with strong humanitarian, military, economic and financial support."
And the European Parliament:
"With 529 votes to 45 and 14 abstentions, Parliament adopted on Thursday a resolution calling on the Heads of State or Government -who hold their summit today and tomorrow - to grant EU candidate status to Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova “without delay”."
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... eps-demand
And the European Council:

Screenshot 2022-06-23 at 20.06.29.png
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... june-2022/

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 24 Jun 2022, 11:34am, edited 1 time in total.
pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

According to the Daily Express NATO is planning a 200,000 strong force to "wipe Russia off the face of the earth". Doubtless the thought of that will please some of the keyboard warriors here but, should it be attempted, many other countries would suffer a similar fate.
What I don't understand is that if the Ukraine is fighting for independence why is it so keen to join the EU? According to our Brexit loving friends countries governed by Brussels bureaucrats have no independence. Perhaps some of them might care to enlighten us about the apparent contradiction.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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al_yrpal
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by al_yrpal »

In Ukraines case it was once part of the USSR and now its independent it has realised that Russia wants to drag it back. Independence is not an option. Therefore it seeks the (in)security of joining the second best which is the EU. It really would prefer NATO membership but thats obviously too provocative.

Had an email from my friend in Germany yesterday...

"Inflation 10% overall, gas 400%, 50% of the houses here use gas energy.
Now they begin to fight for gas: industry, normal people, all fear a cold winter 2022.
And we have lots of idiots, fan of Putin, and they declare the USA and all western
countries to be the reason of this war.

I think Germany will have a really big recession for some years, and I wonder
whether who will pay for all the debt made by the european central bank


Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jdsk
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:37am In Ukraines case it was once part of the USSR and now its independent it has realised that Russia wants to drag it back. Independence is not an option. Therefore it seeks the (in)security of joining the second best which is the EU. It really would prefer NATO membership but thats obviously too provocative.
Ukraine could be independent and a member of either or both.

What's the evidence that Ukraine would prefer to join NATO rather than the EU, please?

The desire for association with the EU was a very large part of the 2013 uprising and the subsequent overthrow of a corrupt authoritarian government. (And involved what was probably the largest demonstration of support for the EU that the world has ever seen.)

Jonathan
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

pete75 wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:20am According to the Daily Express NATO is planning a 200,000 strong force to "wipe Russia off the face of the earth". Doubtless the thought of that will please some of the keyboard warriors here but, should it be attempted, many other countries would suffer a similar fate.
What I don't understand is that if the Ukraine is fighting for independence why is it so keen to join the EU? According to our Brexit loving friends countries governed by Brussels bureaucrats have no independence. Perhaps some of them might care to enlighten us about the apparent contradiction.
There's a lot to unpack in this post. Forgive me if I don't reply straight away.
pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:37am In Ukraines case it was once part of the USSR and now its independent it has realised that Russia wants to drag it back. Independence is not an option. Therefore it seeks the (in)security of joining the second best which is the EU. It really would prefer NATO membership but thats obviously too provocative.

Had an email from my friend in Germany yesterday...

"Inflation 10% overall, gas 400%, 50% of the houses here use gas energy.
Now they begin to fight for gas: industry, normal people, all fear a cold winter 2022.
And we have lots of idiots, fan of Putin, and they declare the USA and all western
countries to be the reason of this war.

I think Germany will have a really big recession for some years, and I wonder
whether who will pay for all the debt made by the european central bank


Al
You're friends with one of those dastardly foreigners Al? The mind boggles.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Stradageek
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stradageek »

slowster wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 11:13pm One of his latest tweets links to a documentary on Youtube that is well worth watching:
I'm often asked on here if Russians really believe what they watch on state TV

This outstanding documentary by journalist Andrei Loshak (now with English subtitles) has the best answer to that question that you'll get anywhere

Absolutely watch it
NB It might be necessary to turn on the English subtitles if they do not appear automatically.

An astonishingly revealing documentary - well worth putting aside 90 minutes to watch it.

Many thanks for linking this
Stradageek
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stradageek »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:37am In Ukraines case it was once part of the USSR and now its independent it has realised that Russia wants to drag it back. Independence is not an option. Therefore it seeks the (in)security of joining the second best which is the EU. It really would prefer NATO membership but thats obviously too provocative.

Had an email from my friend in Germany yesterday...

"Inflation 10% overall, gas 400%, 50% of the houses here use gas energy.
Now they begin to fight for gas: industry, normal people, all fear a cold winter 2022.
And we have lots of idiots, fan of Putin, and they declare the USA and all western
countries to be the reason of this war.

I think Germany will have a really big recession for some years, and I wonder
whether who will pay for all the debt made by the european central bank


Al
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was America that set the precedent for an unjustifiable 'defensive' war when they invaded Iraq.
mattheus
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

Stradageek wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:15am
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was America that set the precedent for an unjustifiable 'defensive' war when they invaded Iraq.
So what?

Wars don't become justified (or legal) just because "those other boys did the same to Fatty Arbuckle last week".

Otherwise we'd all be quoting Hitler to justify anything!
Sorry, that would have ended the thread ...
pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:42am
Stradageek wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:15am
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was America that set the precedent for an unjustifiable 'defensive' war when they invaded Iraq.
So what?

Wars don't become justified (or legal) just because "those other boys did the same to Fatty Arbuckle last week".

Otherwise we'd all be quoting Hitler to justify anything!
Sorry, that would have ended the thread ...
Yes but the UK government, a lot of the press and much of the public sought to justify the Iraq war. Maybe the point would have been better made if the OP had mentioned hypocrisy.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mattheus
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

pete75 wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:54am
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:42am
Stradageek wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:15am
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was America that set the precedent for an unjustifiable 'defensive' war when they invaded Iraq.
So what?

Wars don't become justified (or legal) just because "those other boys did the same to Fatty Arbuckle last week".

Otherwise we'd all be quoting Hitler to justify anything!
Sorry, that would have ended the thread ...
Yes but the UK government, a lot of the press and much of the public sought to justify the Iraq war. Maybe the point would have been better made if the OP had mentioned hypocrisy.
What point is being made? Should cries of "hypocrisy!!" change our dealings in an international crisis. Let's see:

"You know, that Blair fella was just as bad: perhaps we should just let the Russians do what they want? Hmm?"
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al_yrpal
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by al_yrpal »

pete75 wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:04am
You're friends with one of those dastardly foreigners Al? The mind boggles.
I am friends with lots of foreigners Pete, you have me completely wrong.

You are the one with a problem, its like a sore thumb :lol:

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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