War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

[djnotts]

^ "We in Europe shouldn't agree and should oppose him forever. That means continuing to support Ukraine no matter what, even if Putin takes Kiev we should actively support a resistance."

"...no matter what..." would surely be more than "actively support(ing) a resistance". How much more? Would UK masses support a war economy, doubling taxes etc? Would Germany or France? 250,000 troops fighting on the ground? If "we" did would need to openly admit and accept nuclear destruction a possibility. Without USA could "we" even win?

Damn, more questions....

[UpWrong]

^ "We in Europe shouldn't agree and should oppose him forever. That means continuing to support Ukraine no matter what, even if Putin takes Kiev we should actively support a resistance."

"...no matter what..." would surely be more than "actively support(ing) a resistance". How much more? Would UK masses support a war economy, doubling taxes etc? Would Germany or France? 250,000 troops fighting on the ground? If "we" did would need to openly admit and accept nuclear destruction a possibility. Without USA could "we" even win?

Damn, more questions....

My point was partly to say, never make an agrement with Putin since that is giving him victory. He never keeps to them anyway. Yes, I think all EU and European NATO countries should be gearing up their defence industries to the tune of 5% GDP for starters. Putin's military economy will break eventually.

[djnotts]

^" My point was partly to say, never make an agrement with Putin since that is giving him victory. He never keeps to them anyway. Yes, I think all EU and European NATO countries should be gearing up their defence industries to the tune of 5% GDP for starters. Putin's military economy will break eventually"

I tend to agree, but I don't see it happening - at least not until Putin does something even more outrageous than invade Ukraine. And then might be too late.

[Biospace]

You cite atrocities carried out under Stalin, whereas the modern Russian constitution offers a very different form of governance and accountabilities. That the Russian people have managed to land themselves with Putin is more than unfortunate, but they are not the only example of a European nation which has 'elected' a tyrant as leader.

Labelling an entire nation as you do because of its current leader and having emerged from decades of suffering under a totalitarian regime has parallels with those who label individuals as unworthy or useless and is hardly conducive to global stability and prosperity. Compare the different outcomes after WW1 and WW2, as we learned what can happen if a previously strong, proud nation is punished and humiliated.

The only safe way to see Putin gone is for his own people to overthrow him, not by US-led forces to impose their will. I have the impression the military in Washington DC have a very limited understanding of Russia, or how it differs from the USSR. Their track record since the early 1990s is one we should all be aware of.

I have drawn attention to the nature of governance in Russia, which has had some similar characteristics under a succession of regimes. Please state where I have 'labelled and entire nation'.

I couldn't agree more. We should all be aware of Russia's track record since 1990. This includes assassinating journalists and political opponents. You may recall radioactive material and nerve agents being used to do so in the UK.

In addition, Russia has intervened militarily, aka invaded:

1990 Moldova, creating the puppet state of Transnistria, a long narrow strip largely separating Ukraine from Moldova and Romania. 4000km², currently home to 1,200 Russian troops and 20,000T of munitions.
1991. Georgia, creating the puppet state of Abkhazia.
...
Which of these have involved 'US led forces' or 'the military in Washington DC' please?

Linking America with Chechnya or any of the other smaller conflicts you list hasn't been mentioned here. With Ukraine, I appreciate plenty don't see how the uncertainties created by the 2008 Bucharest summit and NATO expansion have affected Putin's actions. https://sites.nd.edu/beyond-politics/20 ... rs-of-war/ is a balanced, interesting read.

You stressed Russia's apparent inability to sort out what you would see as an acceptable form of governance, my apologies if I concluded you were labelling the nation as a whole. What works for one nation may not for another as we're all at different points in our histories, with Russia and other former Soviet states having experienced a very different 20th century under totalitarian tyranny.

Reminding ourselves of how large nations have involved themselves in military operations in order to gain influence over smaller ones, the list will be long and it's certainly not only Russia, which in contrast with the Americans have generally only used force around their borders.

So much of what is written within this topic expresses feelings that Putin deserves a bloody nose, a natural, immediate response to his illegal invasion of Ukraine. A little more reflection suggests that fighting fire with fire is best carried out with the utmost care, if Europe isn't to descend into smoke-filled skies and poverty. Those proclaiming Putin wouldn't dare use nuclear weapons are dangerously optimistic.

To me it appears that the actions of both Russia and Ukraine, with the backing of the West can be seen as responses to and drivers of the other's behaviour, creating a cycle of mutual suspicion and lack of trust. To begin to disentangle this mess needs very careful consideration of the historical context, of the geopolitical interests and security concerns of all those involved.

In addressing the legitimate security concerns of those involved, a workable solution will not appear ideal to either Ukraine (and its backers) or Russia.

[Jdsk]

...
So much of what is written within this topic expresses feelings that Putin deserves a bloody nose, a natural, immediate response to his illegal invasion of Ukraine.
...

Written where? In this forum?

I don't see much of that. I do see a lot of posters expressing a wish for the military invasion of Ukraine by Russia to be halted and reversed. That's quite different.

Jonathan

[DaveReading]

...
So much of what is written within this topic expresses feelings that Putin deserves a bloody nose, a natural, immediate response to his illegal invasion of Ukraine.
...

Written where? In this forum?

I don't see much of that. I do see a lot of posters expressing a wish for the military invasion of Ukraine by Russia to be halted and reversed. That's quite different.

Jonathan

Two sides of the same coin, I'd have said.

[UpWrong]

So the US warns the Kremlin of an imminent Islamist attack on a public gathering such as a theatre, and the Kremlin tells them to stop interfering. Islamist terror attack happens, Putin is silent for 24 hrs and then points the finger at the Ukranians. The man is despicable and pathetic.

The more interviews I hear with Russian defectors the more I hear them say the only way to deal with Putin is tell him that if he wants war then that is what he'll get. We need to stop backing off.

[Carlton green]

So the US warns the Kremlin of an imminent Islamist attack on a public gathering such as a theatre, and the Kremlin tells them to stop interfering. Islamist terror attack happens, Putin is silent for 24 hrs and then points the finger at the Ukranians. The man is despicable and pathetic.

The more interviews I hear with Russian defectors the more I hear them say the only way to deal with Putin is tell him that if he wants war then that is what he'll get. We need to stop backing off.

What goes through Putin’s mind is anyone’s guess and I think that few people have any idea of his aims and tactics. One thing for sure is that he and his advisors are not to be underestimated and we almost certainly are doing just that.

I read that a missile from Russia to Ukraine went via Polish air space. That didn’t happen by accident and there are several messages in that action …

About 20 Russian missiles and seven drones targeted "critical infrastructure" in the western region of Lviv. No damage has been reported.
One of the cruise missiles entered the airspace of neighbouring Poland, a Nato member, the armed forces announced.
"The object entered Polish space near the town of Oserdow and stayed there for 39 seconds. During the entire flight, it was observed by military radar systems," the armed forces said in a statement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68648815

[djnotts]

^ "I read that a missile from Russia to Ukraine went via Polish air space. That didn’t happen by accident and there are several messages in that action …"

Could not 39 seconds be by accident? Either way, potentially dangerous. If "minutes" rather than "seconds", would Poland fire at it? Putin would go even more ape than usual.....

[pete75]

So the US warns the Kremlin of an imminent Islamist attack on a public gathering such as a theatre, and the Kremlin tells them to stop interfering. Islamist terror attack happens, Putin is silent for 24 hrs and then points the finger at the Ukranians. The man is despicable and pathetic.

The more interviews I hear with Russian defectors the more I hear them say the only way to deal with Putin is tell him that if he wants war then that is what he'll get. We need to stop backing off.

They warned of a likely attack in the 48 hours following March 7th. Three weeks ago.

[Moderator note - post edited for breach of Forum Guidelines.]

[DaveReading]

They warned of a likely attack in the 48 hours following March 7th. Three weeks ago.

A warning that an attack is likely in the next two days doesn't preclude the possibility of one happening a couple of weeks later.

[slowster]

A post which breached the Forum Guidelines together with posts made in reply to it have been removed.

[PDQ Mobile]

Guidelines!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ojK9Q_A ... cnVsZXM%3D

[UpWrong]

So the US warns the Kremlin of an imminent Islamist attack on a public gathering such as a theatre, and the Kremlin tells them to stop interfering. Islamist terror attack happens, Putin is silent for 24 hrs and then points the finger at the Ukranians. The man is despicable and pathetic.

The more interviews I hear with Russian defectors the more I hear them say the only way to deal with Putin is tell him that if he wants war then that is what he'll get. We need to stop backing off.

They warned of a likely attack in the 48 hours following March 7th. Three weeks ago.

[Moderator note - post edited for breach of Forum Guidelines.]

And they didn't step up security. Incompetent as well as vicious (having seen how badly beaten the 4 defendants are).

[UpWrong]

So, who watched "Ukraine: enemy in the woods" last night? https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -the-woods
It really brings home the realities of conflict faced by these young soldiers. They are dying out there defending their freedom, and ours. I was very moved by their young female medic, a trained vet. I'm sorry for the Russian conscripts too, but they are the iinvaders. Damn Putin. I''ve made another donation to the DEC Ukraine humanitarian appeal.