War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

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Will
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Will »

Psamathe wrote: 18 Apr 2023, 11:29am
pete75 wrote: 18 Apr 2023, 11:15am ...
On another point, so much for Eatsern European solidarity. Poland and Hungary have banne dthe import of many Ukrainian agricultural products including garin. Poland won't even allow the goods to transit the country to places like Germany.
In fairness to Poland & Hungary, this seems about their own domestic agricultural sector rather than "solidarity" with Ukraine. According to reports I've seen they have enough of the blocked products from their domestic sources and the Ukrainian imports are badly impacting their framers as the price is dropping badly.

It is apparently a temporary ban whilst they find ways to address that Ukrainian exports seem to be staying in those countries rather than passing through. It's that the Ukrainian exports are not properly transiting that they are seeking to address.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65292698 wrote:He [Polish Economic Development and Technology Minister Waldemar Buda] called for talks with Ukraine to set up a scheme to ensure exports pass through Poland and do not end up on the local market.
Ian
A big problem with grain coming from Ukraine is that they use pesticides like chlorpyrifos which is banned in the EU (and is so bad that it is also banned in the UK and US):

https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-04-16- ... ation.html

Will
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horizon
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by horizon »

pete75 wrote: 18 Apr 2023, 11:15am
No, it's been like that in those ratings for years now. Strange how some think the Ukraine can do no wrong. The Ukraine suffers just as much from it's own oligarchs, gangsters and Mafias as does Russia.
I'm afraid that once again I have to agree. However, on February 24th 2022 everything changed. Were it not for the appalling loss of life and destruction, Putin may have done Ukraine a favour by forcing it to confront its own identity as a nation and get a grip. The invasion produced a black and white, right or wrong standpoint; on February 23rd 2022, your post would have had much greater resonance.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Stevek76
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stevek76 »

Ukraine certainly has issues with corruption and other matters and generally isn't short of problems (outside of the whole invasion thing), though not a patch on Russia in those issues of course. It also scores reasonably well regarding elections - and uses a more democratic system than ours. Still, 'western' media has been plenty critical of its shortcomings in the past.

If one looks at the various freedom indices over time however, it's fairly clear that it has had periods of improvement under presidents that were either sympathetic to the EU or relatively neutral and quite an obvious regression under Yanukovych
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pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

Stevek76 wrote: 18 Apr 2023, 6:27pm Ukraine certainly has issues with corruption and other matters and generally isn't short of problems (outside of the whole invasion thing), though not a patch on Russia in those issues of course. It also scores reasonably well regarding elections - and uses a more democratic system than ours. Still, 'western' media has been plenty critical of its shortcomings in the past.

If one looks at the various freedom indices over time however, it's fairly clear that it has had periods of improvement under presidents that were either sympathetic to the EU or relatively neutral and quite an obvious regression under Yanukovych
Not according to a British friend of mine who has lived in Kiev for almost 20 years, and has remained there since the war started.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
toontra
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by toontra »

pete75 wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 9:33am
Not according to a British friend of mine who has lived in Kiev for almost 20 years, and has remained there since the war started.
You would conceed that's anecdotal rather than evidentiary?
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horizon
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by horizon »

pete75 wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 9:33am Not according to a British friend of mine who has lived in Kiev for almost 20 years, and has remained there since the war started.
pete75: does your friend agree with Kiev having decided to resist the invasion and the UK supporting that?
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Cowsham
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Cowsham »

I used to have a little sympathy for Putin -- not much -- but then Crimea got annexed and you're told it's cos there's a majority of Russians living there so you give them the benefit of the doubt sort of but I put Putin now on watch. Since the invasion he's now the enemy and will have to be removed.
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Jdsk
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

In case anyone didn't follow the reference to indices:

The EIU Democracy Index:
https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2022/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The tables in the Wikipedia article allow comparison of Ukraine and Russia, and trends for each over time.

Other indices are available.

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

horizon wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 11:15am
pete75 wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 9:33am Not according to a British friend of mine who has lived in Kiev for almost 20 years, and has remained there since the war started.
pete75: does your friend agree with Kiev having decided to resist the invasion and the UK supporting that?
He's never mentioned it.
BTW when replying with a quote from someones post you don't need to put the name of person quoted in bold or otherwise. The quote system supplies their name for you.
Last edited by pete75 on 20 Apr 2023, 8:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

toontra wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 10:12am
pete75 wrote: 20 Apr 2023, 9:33am
Not according to a British friend of mine who has lived in Kiev for almost 20 years, and has remained there since the war started.
You would conceed that's anecdotal rather than evidentiary?
Hmmm I'd say a reasonably intelligent person who's lived in a country for twenty years, observed their political system in action and has friendship with the daughter and son-in-law of a former PM, including during the premiership, will know a fair bit about the political system. He's told me a fair bit of stuff that went on behind the scenes and isn't public knowledge . I'd call it all empirical evidence.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
briansnail
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by briansnail »

Its great people are helping both Russia and Ukraine by not supporting companies that sponsor events that allow Russian athletes. As Zelensky requested.This will help end the war quicker.
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pete75
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

briansnail wrote: 21 Apr 2023, 3:00pm Its great people are helping both Russia and Ukraine by not supporting companies that sponsor events that allow Russian athletes. As Zelensky requested.This will help end the war quicker.
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now, now - easy on the sarcasm.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

NATO:

"Ukraine’s rightful place is in the Euro-Atlantic family. Ukraine’s rightful place is in NATO. And over time, our support will help to make this possible."

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_214037.htm

Might as well be completely clear.

Jonathan
Biospace
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Biospace »

For over a year I've been concerned that it's possible Western sanctions on Russia have been affecting the West more adversely than Russia.

Russian pensions, the country’s minimum wage and salaries are keeping pace with inflation better, its economy appears to be more than surviving and possibly better than those in the West. They also appear to have better control of inflation than we do.

Meanwhile, the EU purchases Russian fuel through Indian and North African intermediaries which both helps the Russian economy while further harming the West - according to highly reputable sources Morocco bought about 600,000 barrels of Russian diesel throughout 2021, which in January 2023 alone had increased to 2 million barrels with another 1.2 million barrels arriving in the country in February.

Furthermore, the bond between Russia and China appears to have been strengthened by our response.
Ben@Forest
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Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Ben@Forest »

Biospace wrote: 2 May 2023, 2:00pm For over a year I've been concerned that it's possible Western sanctions on Russia have been affecting the West more adversely than Russia.

Russian pensions, the country’s minimum wage and salaries are keeping pace with inflation better, its economy appears to be more than surviving and possibly better than those in the West. They also appear to have better control of inflation than we do.

Meanwhile, the EU purchases Russian fuel through Indian and North African intermediaries which both helps the Russian economy while further harming the West - according to highly reputable sources Morocco bought about 600,000 barrels of Russian diesel throughout 2021, which in January 2023 alone had increased to 2 million barrels with another 1.2 million barrels arriving in the country in February.

Furthermore, the bond between Russia and China appears to have been strengthened by our response.
You are taking nearly all of that information from Russian sources; multiple agencies have said that Russian information regarding its own finances and economy are unreliable. What's the evidence for the Sino-Russian bond growing stronger? The Chinese are still not arming the Russians, it looks like that what Putin was angling for and has not got. But the Chinese are happy to buy his oil at knock-down prices.
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