wheel bearing adjustment

[bluespeeder]

I always used to leave a tiny bit of play when adjusting wheel hub bearings until recently. After reading that there should be a bit of play with quick release part tight and no play once tightened I have tried this but ended up with a damaged hub, I assume I overdid it. Is there anything wrong with leaving a bit of play, as it seems safer than risking damage?
incidentally, I have noticed that the amount of play on this wheel varies as I rotate it - maybe a slightly not straight axle?

[gregoryoftours]

I don't quite get what you mean when you say you might have overdone it - if before you were starting with a bit of play that disappeared when the skewer was tightened, isn't having a bit of play with the skewer half closed and no play when the skewer is fully secured going to be either the same as the first method or even a tiny bit looser?

In any case leaving a certain amount of play before the skewer is tightened is absolutely a good idea.
If you have a spare hub kicking around it's worth doing an experiment to show that it is important.

Set up the hub so it runs smoothly with no play, then fit it in a bike's dropouts with normal skewer clamping force and you'll find out how tight the hub turns. It's much more evident when the hub is not built into a wheel.

As far as play at some points but not others this could be due to pitting on some areas of the cones but not others, or damage to some of the bearing balls but not others.

[Jdsk]

Welcome.

How are you tightening the QR skewer?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

incidentally, I have noticed that the amount of play on this wheel varies as I rotate it - maybe a slightly not straight axle?

Do you mean play... something is loose against something else? Or is part of the wheel bent... and the distance from the frame or fork varies as you rotate it?

Thanks

Jonathan

[bluespeeder]

sorry for the confusion, by play I mean the amount of movement that can be felt at the rim (although too small to be seen). I like to adjust this to about 1/32 inch at the rim which amounts to very small movement at the hub.
The rear dropouts are the older horizontal type so I tighten the quick release quite tight using the lever. I get the impression this compresses the axle quite a lot hence the 'overdone' comment.
When the hub failed it started making clicking noises which got progressively worse and I could feel it binding when removed. When I took it apart the drive side bearings and surfaces had discoloured (overheating?) and some bearings looked slightly pitted. I have rebuilt with new ball bearings and the wheel seems to be working fine with just a tiny bit of play left when the QR is tight.
The question I have is can this cause any problems? I get the impression slightly under tightened less likely to cause problems.

[alexnharvey]

This is a very fine margin but i think you must err on the microscopic play side rather than the slightly too tight side. Using the "hub vice" (i e a qr and spacers) method to apply pressure to the axle while adjusting the bearings simplifies the process.

[slowster]

See this thread - viewtopic.php?t=143125.

[bluespeeder]

thanks for the link slowster I couldn't find that info earlier.
I get the impression that as the hub has done about 20,000 miles already, getting it perfect is unlikely and it will last longer with slight play left. The risk is I might overtightening the skewer after a puncture repair, and it seems overtight is far more likely to cause damage than slightly loose.
The QR tension does seem to make a big difference to the adjustment.

[gregoryoftours]

thanks for the link slowster I couldn't find that info earlier.
I get the impression that as the hub has done about 20,000 miles already, getting it perfect is unlikely and it will last longer with slight play left. The risk is I might overtightening the skewer after a puncture repair, and it seems overtight is far more likely to cause damage than slightly loose.
The QR tension does seem to make a big difference to the adjustment.

I agree with what you say here. If your hubs are in anything less than completely perfect condition it means that if there is no play at any point in the rotation then some spots (the unworn bits) are going to be over-tight. In that case it's better to have a hint of play where the parts are slightly worn, meaning that the 'good' areas will be at correct preload.

If the internals are discoloured I wonder if the damage started due to moisture corrosion as much as anything.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I’ve got Fulcrum hubs on my best bike. Every now and again I have to tweak them to eliminate a wee bit of play. It’s not a difficult job. 2.5mm Allen key, loosen collar, turn collar, just enough to eliminate play, then turn back a tiny bit to prevent undue wear, whilst keeping the play eliminated, then re tighten the collar. It doesn’t need doing very often, and it’s easy to do. I have bikes with Mavic hubs, which auto adjust, but they aren’t as good IMO:

[gregoryoftours]

I’ve got Fulcrum hubs on my best bike. Every now and again I have to tweak them to eliminate a wee bit of play. It’s not a difficult job. 2.5mm Allen key, loosen collar, turn collar, just enough to eliminate play, then turn back a tiny bit to prevent undue wear, whilst keeping the play eliminated, then re tighten the collar. It doesn’t need doing very often, and it’s easy to do. I have bikes with Mavic hubs, which auto adjust, but they aren’t as good IMO:

That's the adjustment that can be done with the wheel clamped in the frame, isn't it? It's a really good idea.

[axel_knutt]

Having the bearings too tight will do a lot more harm a lot more quickly than having them a bit loose.

Trying to feel for binding in the bearings by turning the wheel once it's fitted in the bike is very inaccurate because the small amount of binding it takes to cause damage is masked by the inertia of the wheel. It's much more sensitive to feel by rotating the axle between your fingers with the wheel out, and in order to do that with a Q/R axle you need a pair of dummy dropouts so that you can do it with the skewer tensioned.

If you're checking with the wheel on the bike, then the most sensitive way to check for binding is by looking at how the wheel settles when it stops spinning. The heaviest part of the wheel (sometimes near the valve or a spoke reflector, but usually a heavy point on the tyre) should settle at the bottom, and the wheel should return to the same place again if it's then displaced from that position. The further you can move the heavy point from the bottom without it returning, the more friction there is in the bearing.

If the bearing binds in some places and not others, it's either got grit and debris in it, or it's becoming worn.

[fausto99]

As Brucey has suggested many times, you can use washers as dropout substitutes. This will allow you to set up the bearing with the QR skewer in place and done up as tight as you normally do it. That's foolproof compared to leaving it a "bit loose" and hoping you've judged it right.

[bluespeeder]

thanks for all the advice.
I have the wheel set up now with a tiny bit of play in some orientations and no play in others so I assume something is worn a bit unevenly.
The rotating valve test works although the heavy point is opposite the valve where the seam of the rim is (I believe there are couple of steel pins inside). This is also a bit trickier on the rear because the freehub only allows one direction of rotation.
This is probably the optimum setup for the age/wear of the hub and I am not sure how a bit of play could damage the hub.
I am not convinced the discolouration is rust as it appears evenly on the ball bearings and as rings on the cup and cone (drive side only), everywhere else is silver and shiny.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I’ve got Fulcrum hubs on my best bike. Every now and again I have to tweak them to eliminate a wee bit of play. It’s not a difficult job. 2.5mm Allen key, loosen collar, turn collar, just enough to eliminate play, then turn back a tiny bit to prevent undue wear, whilst keeping the play eliminated, then re tighten the collar. It doesn’t need doing very often, and it’s easy to do. I have bikes with Mavic hubs, which auto adjust, but they aren’t as good IMO:

That's the adjustment that can be done with the wheel clamped in the frame, isn't it? It's a really good idea.

Yep.