Is orbea gain usable without motor, and poor range?

[nutmix]

I have younger friends who are strong road bikers with light 8kg bikes. I cant keep up with them on my 13kg mountain bike (I have never owned a road bike).

Being 55, and having dodgy knees, and reduced heart function, I am tempted to get an assisted road bike instead of buying a normal road bike. The gain is incredible looking bike with good reviews. I was tempted to sell the house, card and some kids, and get the M20, (as there are no M30s available in spain)

Around me are flats followed by undulating medium hills followed by monster climbs, so completely mixed. Also, wind. I'm 80kg 195cm.

I have two biker friends in wales who have this bike or similar, and they advised NOT to get one for these reasons:

1) Assistance tops out at 25kmph, and they say you cant cycle past this without killing yourself due to weight and motor drag. This means you will be left for dust on the straights.
2) It has very short range when its hilly, steep and/or windy, they get 30km or less, and they do hundreds of kms a week and train hard. They don't think I have any chance of doing the typical 80k rides around me on one charge, even on the minimum setting. They say the 100km claimed range is more like best case with small rider, flat, no wind etc.
3) they say the bike is unusable if the charge runs out, because of the weight and motor resistance. This surprised me, but seems to be true as i cant find one person who has ridden it without battery, they all make sure they get home before it runs out.
4) they advised against getting the M20 (there is no M30 available), and advised I should only consider a heavier D40 or D30. They think the weight saving of the M Carbon series is a waste (for the price), as the motor overcomes the extra weight of the D series, and as you dont use it without motor, the lighter bike is only good for lifting into your car etc.
5) they say there is no point in cycling with non ebikes due to yoyo effect - ebike is slow on flat and downhill, so falls way behind, but takes over on the steep climbs.

So it sounds like buying an e-bike to keep up with your younger/fitter friends is a waste of time, which is very sad. I was considering chipping a D30 to get more speed on the flat to try to keep up, but they say even this won't be enough.

Would anyone agree or disagree with the above?

They suggest going for the stronger revolt-e, or nothing. This may be a better bike, but its super ugly (sorry revolte-e owners), and not available currently in spain, even if I liked turquoise.

[peterb]

Have you tried an 8kg road-bike? It would probably cost less than an M20, and arguably look even better!
Your friends make some valid points. Our faster club groups can average over 25km/h, so no assistance there. The more leisurely group I ride with will very often drift up over the 25 km/h cut off on flatter or gently rising stretches of road and it is very hard to keep an almost 16kg Gain rolling at that speed for very far. It makes riding with a group of non-assisted riders a big challenge, in spite of some advantage uphill. My Gain is an alloy Tiagra equipped version around 14.5kg 'bare' - but of course by the time you've added pedals, bottle cages, saddle pack, mudguards etc, etc you've added even more weight . I liken it to trying to ride a fully loaded touring bike at that sort of speed. My range on a typical group ride on undulating roads with the bike's inbuilt battery is around 40 miles maximum - and I have run out of battery on a couple of occasions, and the Gain is a very heavy bike to ride unassisted. I now have a battery extender which I reckon will give me a range of 60 - 70 miles on mixed terrain, but it comes with another 2 kg weight penalty. However if you need to use the highest level of assistance on steep hills the battery charge will drop like a stone.
I bought a Gain because my leg muscles are affected by loss of blood flow caused by vascular disease and riding an unassisted bike became almost impossible. Before that arose I was riding an 8kg carbon-fibre Rose Xeon CRS on club rides but now I can't ride even that bike more than a very few, very painful miles.
I'm certainly not surprised you can't keep up with your friends on your 13kg mountain bike, so until you have to go electric I'd advise persevere and try a lightweight road-bike. Could you borrow or rent one?

[Jdsk]

Welcome.

I suggest riding a Gain D20 and letting us know your thoughts after that.

Jonathan

[stodd]

NOT based on a first hand knowledge of these bikes (they are clearly not designed for me anyway), but from quite a bit of reading in different places.

1) Any legal ebike in the EU/UK will be limited to 25kph assisted.

2) The Gain has a smallish battery so will be range limited; as you say the 100km will only be in very easy conditions, If you look at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ you can get an idea of how different conditions and riding style affect range. (Choose the 500wh battery and halve the results, and the least powerful motor.) Even though designed for Bosch, the results are pretty good for other bikes, and in particular the effect of differences. You'll easily see factors of 3::1 between best conditions and realistic conditions, even lower ranges than 1/3 if you go in for high levels of assist.

3) There shouldn't be motor resistance when going over the 25kph or riding with assistance turned off. People sometimes perceive motor resistance above 25kph when in fact it is just lack of assistance they are feeling. The weight penalty on the other hand is real.

4) no comment

5) On the flat once moving there shouldn't be much difference from a slightly heavier regular bike ... it should be better than even a light a regular mountain bike.

[peterb]

5) On the flat once moving there shouldn't be much difference from a slightly heavier regular bike ... it should be better than even a light a regular mountain bike.

Often said, but in my experience, if I ride my Gain with the Extender Battery fitted it is harder to get moving, needing more assistance, slows more quickly when power is cut off, and uses more charge per mile. I have always found my lighter bikes more lively than the heavier ones. If the OP decides to buy an e-road bike so as to continue riding with a group of fit friends on non-assisted bikes on the sort of rides he described, I would advise him to buy the very lightest e-road bike he can afford, with the best wheels and tyres he can find.

[nutmix]

I suggest riding a Gain D20 and letting us know your thoughts after that.

That would be ideal, but here in South spain (near gibraltar), there are no real bike shops within a 100km radius, and even those outside this don't stock anything like this. I even contacted Orbea direct, and they just laughed - they said there are no gains in spain in any shop in spain currently, and they don't stock XL either way. There are also very few online options - you have to order from germany or france.

[nutmix]

2) The Gain has a smallish battery so will be range limited; as you say the 100km will only be in very easy conditions, If you look at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ you can get an idea of how different conditions and riding style affect range. (Choose the 500wh battery and halve the results, and the least powerful motor.)

Sheesh, I just tried this out, and hilly + windy + "tour" and you are looking at 87/2 = 43km range. Eco is 126/2 = 63km, but I have heard you need more than eco up hills. I don't know how the 2x and 1x Gains are geared compared with my mountain bike: I can get up any hill, but only in the lowest cog at a snail pace.

Is the gain an "upright road bike" or "low road bike"?|

[stodd]

I'd say 'low road bike' from the range assistant point of view. It'll always need some interpretation and a pinch of salt, especially for absolute ranges, but nevertheless very informative.

There are several threads here and on Pedelecs forum where people are giving real world figures over 100k on those bikes (some even over 100 miles if I remember right), but they seem to involve most of the way on the flat at over 25kph, so without assistance.

[nutmix]

The crux is is cycling something like the 15kg D30 over 25km/h sustainable? I usually sustain 28km/h on flat on my mountain bike with fat tyres, but I cant do this more than 30mins without my knees hurting. It sounds like > 25km/h the motor gives too much friction, but some say not.

[Jdsk]

I suggest riding a Gain D20 and letting us know your thoughts after that.

That would be ideal, but here in South spain (near gibraltar), there are no real bike shops within a 100km radius, and even those outside this don't stock anything like this. I even contacted Orbea direct, and they just laughed - they said there are no gains in spain in any shop in spain currently, and they don't stock XL either way.

Do the Gains in Spain stay mostly on the plain?

Jonathan

[Aikon]

For me the key is can you ride it above the assistance comfortably, I’ve spent 104km on a Fazua equipped Trek Domane+ and still had 3 of the 5 battery level indicator lights showing, which indicates 40-60% battery remaining, my average speed was 26kph, so just above the 25.5kph assistance cutoff.

Elevation gained was 705m, so not hugely hilly, temperature range was 6-12 degrees C so a little cold for lithium batteries to operate at optimum efficiency, wind was 17 kph south westerly, most of the ride was solo so very little slipstreaming.

[peterb]

The crux is is cycling something like the 15kg D30 over 25km/h sustainable? I usually sustain 28km/h on flat on my mountain bike with fat tyres, but I cant do this more than 30mins without my knees hurting. It sounds like > 25km/h the motor gives too much friction, but some say not.

You might find it's possible but the Gain is not going to be much lighter than your mountain bike, if at all. Thinner smoother tyres will certainly help. But as I said you might find an 8Kg unassisted road-bike works for you. The Gain is not an easy ride unassisted at over 25 km/h. Some bikes have a 'get up and go' eager feel about them, my Gain, unassisted, isn't one of them.

[freeflow]

Mrs F has a Cannondale Synapse Neo SE gravel e-bike with 47c gravel tyres. Last year she accompanied me and a few other riders on a gentle 100km ride (average 18 kph). At the end of the ride she had three bars left on the battery. When I looked at the power usage summary she rode about half the ride unpowered. Mrs F is a 60+ type 1 diabetic with a BMI of over 30.

[Bonzo Banana]

I'm surprised by some of the comments but have zero experience of the Gain but motor assist is mainly for the hills or perhaps at low speed stopping and starting in urban traffic but on the flats and downhill surely the weight of the bike is far less important. I can ride any bike fast on the flats or downhill but up hill is a struggle.

I've watched the youtube channel yako rides again and have been impressed with the Gain he rides.

Seems a good bike to me but that is admittedly just viewing someone else ride one.

I think a hub motor like that would generate about 30Nm of torque and the average torque of a rider is probably around 50Nm but as you age this reduces so some elderly riders are probably around 30Nm anyway so its a doubling of power. Also bear in mind the hub motor is independent of the drivetrain so it massively reduces wear and tear on the drivetrain going up hill etc as the load is shared between the motor and the drivetrain.

Seems like a nice overall package with a lot of positives. Hub motors tend to be much more reliable than mid-drive motors long term although this one is geared so there are likely 3 planetary gears inside that will wear down eventually.

[oldtimer99]

There's no easy answer to this.
My ride is a D30 and I love it. Today, for instance, it's gusting 30mph across the Yorkshire flatlands, and there's no leaves on the hedges. Pootled around with the motor on lowest setting. Only got above 25kmh for the 'wind behind' stretches. Felt relaxed. And that's what ebikes are about. They take some of the pain away.
So, my normal routes range from 25miles to 80 miles. I've not run out of battery yet. There are loads of miles where the battery is off because my speed is >16 mph . There's no battery drag with battery off. There is a weight, hence speed penalty. 14kg versus my other bike at 11kg
Can you keep up with pure roadies? Nope.
They're using a lot less energy on a 10kg roadie than you are on a 14kg Gain.
Can you chase them up the hills? Oh yes...an extra 300watts or so helps! Tee hee
Will you run out if battery? Simply depends on how often you turn the electricity on, and for how long.