Page 2 of 3
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 6:03am
by thirdcrank
Returning to my earlier post when I refrred to uncorroborated evidence, a video recording of the incident would make a huge difference.
I imagine these recordings are not kept long unless it is decided to preserve the evidence of an incident. Anybody intending to complain would be advised to do so asap after the incident.
My own most memorable interaction with a bus driver:-
Some years ago, in the early evening in the centre of Leeds, I was overtaken dangerously by the driver of an 'out of service' double decker who pulled across in front of me so sharply that I had to stop to avoid being crushed (no doubt if he had hit me it would have been an allegation of a space invader incident.) The driver was dropping off other uniformed bus personnel at different bus stops, which was why he was driving stupidly and showing off. He had the door open and there was a group of his colleagues standing on the platform.
We stopped at traffic lights we me in the inside lane. By now he was alone. Without me saying anything, he shouted something along the lines that he was allowed to overtake me whenever he liked. I just said 'Driving a bus is a big responsibility and you are not up to it.'
The lights changed and he then chased me for a few hundred yards - several times he came close to hitting me. We stopped at more lights and he was out of the bus and offering me violence. It was broad daylight with people around and eventually at my suggestion that he should grow up he got back on his bus. It never occurred to me to report this.
I was on my Birdy when it happened, very distinctive, of course, so it was a while before I rode that bike again in the middle of Leeds.
We have both First Bus (direct descendants of Leeds City Transport and cavemen before that) and Arriva (previously a various private companies such as Yorkshire Traction and West Riding.) The Arriva drivers are by far the most considerate. I fancy this is partly caused by slightly less horrendous driving conditions out on the open road and partly a group dynamic sort of thing.
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 6:08am
by EdinburghFixed
Wow - thanks all!
It was not so much the fact that he pulled out on me - everyone is human - but that he was angry that I did not give way (despite being on a main road) and seemed completely unrepentant. I never expected a driver (least of all a professional one) to tell me he didn't care if he ran me over in such a situation and that he felt the law would back him up - crazy!
Surely rule 223, which doesn't even say "should", is subservient to rule 172:
The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road.
You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
I'm sure the driver could argue that he pulled out because he felt the cars were leaving him a gap, but assuming of course that I count as traffic, surely I do not have to stop for him, but vice versa?
I have cooled off a lot after reading your feedback here. On the other hand, suppose (God forbid) another cyclist actually gets squashed there by the same guy, and I have done nothing...
I will try to write something at work this morning and CC it here.
Once again, thanks for the many responses - I am very grateful!
PS. On the subject of video evidence, I suppose it would have been good to have a helmet cam to back me up (or post on Youtube
). Something I have thought about for a while, although it seems morbidly depressing to video your daily commute because the conditions are so bad.
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 8:05am
by hubgearfreak
thirdcrank wrote:I was not suggesting that writing was not an option. In my post I was trying to suggest it's necessary to have a clear goal and then think of a way to achieve it.
i didn't think you were suggesting not writing, the point i tried to make but wasn't clear is that he should write and leave it up to the driver how many complaints he earns before he's in serious trouble with his employer
EdinburghFixed wrote:assuming of course that I count as traffic, surely I do not have to stop for him
that's the thing with motorised traffic, they think everyone else should get out of their way. it's like some disease of the mind and by writing you're helping to slow down the rot
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 8:13am
by Cunobelin
Always end the letter with a constructed request for them to take action so they have to reply to specifics.
Usually:
"In the first instance could you reassure me that this is not the normal standard of driving that you accept from your employees, and secondly I would appreciate details of the actions your Company is goig to take to prevent such an occurence in the future."
This works both ways......
If the reply does not address this - point that out
If the reply does and thaere are future ocurences (especially withthe same driver) further letters can be started -
"In your correspondence of23/7/08 you gave an undertaking that your company would be taking action to prevent this type of incident - from today's expeience these actions have been ineffective to say the least!"
Poite, to the point and forces them to give details.
Re: Incident with bus.. best way to proceed?
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 12:26pm
by 2Tubs
EdinburghFixed wrote:Hi all,
Bit of a flustered first post, so I apologise in advance!
Basically, I was cycling back from work this evening when a bus pulled out on me (he was coming from the right, turning to go the same direction as me).
There was plenty of traffic about so speeds were quite low, and I saw him coming with enough time to squirt ahead. He gave it some on the horn and when I looked over my shoulder, could see him shouting something.
Now as luck would have it, there is a bus stop about 100 feet further down the road, so I cycled ahead of him (slowly) to the stop, and went to the door to tell him that, in fact, he was responsible for giving way to traffic on the main road and that he wouldn't look so clever in court if he'd run me down.
He basically told me that some cars were letting him out, and as his bus was X feet long and weighed Y tons, I'd damn well better keep out of his way as he didn't care if he ran me down...
I wasn't too sure what to do but made a note of the bus number, reg, and driver's description. Understandably I didn't try to board the bus and get anyone's details to witness!
It may seem minor to you but I was very put out to be driven at in such a manner and then to be told that I had better keep out of the way or he'd feel justified in running me down..
I'm just not sure where to go from here - I suppose I should phone/write to the bus company but I'm worried they'll just laugh it off. Does anyone have any advice?
I'm in Edinburgh for what it is worth. The bus was a Lothian number 2 and it was at the Candlemaker row / King George bridge junction.
Thanks!
Contact the bus company. In my experience (West Midlands) they take these things very seriously.
I have contacted them a couple of times when I have fell victim to dangerous bus driving and a couple when I felt that a driver was displaying very good, safe driving, for instance passing me slowly in the outside lane of a dual carraigeway even though I had a cycle lane and he had to wait for traffic to make the manouvre.
They welcome critisism and comendations. Both go on the drivers employment record.
Gazza
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 1:00pm
by Bananaman
Every bus has a number on the side/back. Its usually 3-4 digits long for a Lothian bus and 5-6 for a First. Get this, the reg the route and the time, and complain (principally about the abuse/threats).
As people have mentioned there is now CC on most buses and you'll be surprised by how responsive the companies can be.
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 1:32pm
by EdinburghFixed
Ok, I have sent off a letter to Lothian Buses and also CC'd to the Traffic Commissioner for Scotland (sounds like a very august personage!)
The text is as follows (thanks to Cunobelin for the concluding paragraph):
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to you to report an incident involving one of your buses.
The vehicle in question was SN51 AYS, running route #2 southbound. The incident occurred between 17:55 and 18:00 around the junction between Candlemaker Row and the George IV Bridge.
I was cycling south along George IV Bridge when the bus (which was stationary at the top of Candlemaker Row) pulled out. Fortunately, I was able to accelerate enough to pass the bus before it drew fully across the road (I estimate my speed at this time to be approx. 20mph – I felt this action was preferable to attempting to stop, perhaps right in front of the bus).
As I am sure you are aware, it is required by law that vehicles at junctions give way to traffic on the main road:
The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
[Laws Road traffic act 1988 sect 36 & Traffic Signs Regulations regs 10(1), 16(1) & 25]
While I understand that a bus is a large vehicle and no doubt difficult to operate, the driver in this case sounded his horn and shouted at me (I don’t know what, but he was not wishing me a good evening).
I was sufficiently concerned to pull over at the next bus stop and remind the driver of his legal requirement to yield – especially to vulnerable road users. Instead of apologising, the driver (who was Caucasian, in his early to mid 20’s, with short dark hair and wearing sunglasses) behaved in a very offensive manner, telling me in so many words that as his bus was 45 feet long he had right of way over me.
He then told me, again in so many words, that he would not be held to account if he ran me over and then shut the door on me, leaving me to feel very unsafe for the remainder of my journey, when I could easily pass the same bus at every stop!
On behalf of all vulnerable road users exposed to such a reckless and dangerous attitude I feel compelled to write to you and express my gravest concerns.
In the first instance could you reassure me that this is not the normal standard of behaviour that you accept from your employees, and secondly I would appreciate details of the actions your Company is going to take to prevent such an occurrence in future.
I have forwarded a copy of this letter to Joan Aitken, the Traffic Commissioner for Scotland.
Yours sincerely,
etc. etc.
I will post up here if I receive a response.
Thanks again!
D.
Re: the right way to dob in bus driver
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 1:49pm
by Nerazzurri
Sloooow Rider wrote:to give way to them when possible. I imagine the driver would have a defence.
The original post is a bit vague but I gather the bus is emerging from side road on the right to join the major road? And that traffic approaching the cyclist on the opposite side of the carriageway from him signalled the bus to emerge across them?
If I've understood that correctly then it's up to the bus driver to check the safety of his emerging manoeuvre, not just presume it's OK because someone has waved him out. IMHO he's made the common mistake of not checking the opposite carriageway before moving. The traffic opposite him, through no fault of their own have not seen a car giving way to an emerging vehicle and the first thing they know about it is 36ft PCV (why on the DfT link above does it say PSV? strange) coming at thier offside.
IMHO of course.
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 2:10pm
by PW
So we have 2 bus drivers on here who both think the bus driver in the original post was at fault.
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 2:40pm
by stat
EdinburghFixed wrote:Ok, I have sent off a letter to Lothian Buses and also CC'd to the Traffic Commissioner for Scotland (sounds like a very august personage!)
The text is as follows (thanks to Cunobelin for the concluding paragraph):
[/snip]
Great letter
Cyclists are regularly killed by buses and lorries, here in London alone. No matter how concerned we may be about whether a driver is disciplined over this incident, it pales into nothing against the horrible sunken feeling in your stomach when you hear at uni / work / locally that someone you knew was crushed to death whilst cycling that morning.
Report, report, and report: this is vital to increasing and improving awareness. Well done.
Re: the right way to dob in bus driver
Posted: 25 Jul 2008, 3:26pm
by EdinburghFixed
Nerazzurri wrote:The original post is a bit vague but I gather the bus is emerging from side road on the right to join the major road? And that traffic approaching the cyclist on the opposite side of the carriageway from him signalled the bus to emerge across them?
Since it's Friday afternoon, I've procrastinated an annotated overhead view:
I think the reason he came out is because the oncoming traffic let him, and the traffic in my direction was not moving fast (as we are coming up to lights).
Presumably he did the classic quick look, thinks the cyclist is probably only doing 5mph. Mistakes do happen, it was his behaviour rather than the initial manouvre that really worried me!
Posted: 26 Jul 2008, 11:56pm
by Kirst
I'm really surprised about this - I've written to Lothian Buses before now to congratulate them on how considerate their drivers are of cyclists! First Bus, on the other hand, want us all dead. Lothian Buses are owned by the Lothian councils - Edinburgh, East and Mid Lothian and possibly West (although possibly not, you know what they're like out there), so it might be worth dropping a line to your councillors as well.
Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:02am
by ianr1950
PW wrote:Nerazzuri's right. If it's a Stagecoach owned company the driver will end up back in driving school with a considerable loss of pay.
You should also be aware that there's an "engine stop" button on the outside of every bus.
I have hit the engine stop on a bus a few times where they have caused me to take evasive action by their driving.
It was probably childish to do so but it caused them a fair bit of inconvenience and got him out of my way.
Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 3:10pm
by EdinburghFixed
Is it illegal to hit the stop button though? It would have been nice but not if I ended up in some kind of police chase
Just to update, I have had letters confirming receipt from both the Traffic Commissioner's office and Lothian Buses. I'll post up any substantial replies I receive.
thanks,
D.
Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 5:41pm
by thirdcrank
In England and Wales (cannot speak for Scotland) there used to be and probably still is an offence of tampering with a motor vehicle. I don't remember it as being well-defined and I don't ever remember seeing many people prosecuted for it. It is intended to deal with cases where it cannot be proved somebody was trying to steal a vehicle but I am pretty sure it would cover pressing the engine stop button.
I've been tempted to push that button once or twice myself but it's a no-no. The courts tend to take a dim view of harassing people like bus drivers and delaying a bus full of passengers would not impress the bench either. No matter what the underlying issues may be, this is one I should skip.