Cycling UK Forum

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 10:56pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 10:34pm PS: I assume that everyone is aware of the disputed status of titanium dioxide in different jurisdictions' categorisation of carcinogenicity.

'Disputed status'. Can you elaborate a little, please? Regarding what 'disputed status' means, since titanium oxide is regarded as safe for use in commercially available sunblock.

Which? from May 2021:
"EU watchdog proposes ban on E171 food colouring. Carcinogenic effects related to titanium dioxide can't be ruled out, says European Food Safety Authority":
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/eu ... vCm0z1wtle

European Food Safety Authority:
"Titanium dioxide: E171 no longer considered safe when used as a food additive"
https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/news/tita ... d-additive

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:07pm

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 10:56pm'Disputed status'. Can you elaborate a little, please? Regarding what 'disputed status' means, since titanium oxide is regarded as safe for use in commercially available sunblock.

I used a block with this in, years ago - should I be concerned?

I wouldn't be concerned in the least about using as recommended a commercial product sold in the EU or the UK.

But it wasn't me that brought up "a bottle of chemicals", "repeat once they've been absorbed into the body", "knowing what's used on your body" or "anywhere near as hazardous as some of the stuff many regularly ingest". Or the idea that traditional preparations are safe because they're traditional.

But I wouldn't handle titanium dioxide powder without adequate precautions. So I wouldn't make my own sun block if it required me to do that.

Jonathan

Oh. So it is safe for topical use?

What's your issue with my mentioning "a bottle of chemicals"or "repeat once they've been absorbed into the body" or "knowing what's used on your body" or "anywhere near as hazardous as some of the stuff many regularly ingest"?

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:14pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:07pm

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 10:56pm'Disputed status'. Can you elaborate a little, please? Regarding what 'disputed status' means, since titanium oxide is regarded as safe for use in commercially available sunblock.

I used a block with this in, years ago - should I be concerned?

I wouldn't be concerned in the least about using as recommended a commercial product sold in the EU or the UK.

But it wasn't me that brought up "a bottle of chemicals", "repeat once they've been absorbed into the body", "knowing what's used on your body" or "anywhere near as hazardous as some of the stuff many regularly ingest". Or the idea that traditional preparations are safe because they're traditional.

But I wouldn't handle titanium dioxide powder without adequate precautions. So I wouldn't make my own sun block if it required me to do that.

Oh. So it is safe for topical use?

If i told you that a chemical had been banned from food because it was thought to carry a risk of causing cancer, genetic alterations and effects on reproductive health when ingested would you be happy to rub it on your skin... the biggest organ of your body?

NB My comment on its safety above.

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:18pm
If i told you that a chemical had been banned from food because it was thought to carry a risk of causing cancer, genetic alterations and effects on reproductive health when ingested would you be happy to rub it on your skin... the biggest organ of your body?

NB My comment on its safety above.

Jonathan

You're now using one of my points regarding oxybenzone and the other organic compounds which are absorbed into your body through the skin! These are linked with endocrine disorders and cell damage in humans, as well as the toxic effects on other life - which we then ingest, unless vegetarian.

In contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized. Which I clearly pointed out this mate of mine avoids, unlike many officially endorsed, commercially available products using oxide powders.

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:44pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:18pm If i told you that a chemical had been banned from food because it was thought to carry a risk of causing cancer, genetic alterations and effects on reproductive health when ingested would you be happy to rub it on your skin... the biggest organ of your body?

NB My comment on its safety above.

You're now using one of my points regarding oxybenzone and the other organic compounds which are absorbed into your body through the skin! These are linked with endocrine disorders and cell damage in humans, as well as the toxic effects on other life - which we then ingest, unless vegetarian.

In contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized. Which I clearly pointed out this mate of mine avoids, unlike many officially endorsed, commercially available products using oxide powders.

Of course I'm using the same line of reasoning. That's what should happen.

The point being that it's very easy to push scare stories concerning just about anything.

So would you be happy to rub that chemical above into your skin?

Thanks

Jonathan

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:44pmIn contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized.

What's the concentration of titanium dioxide and zinc oxide in skin cells and plasma (or anywhere else) after typical application in a sun block? Obviously that might have a different answer depending on the particle size.

What's the concentration of titanium dioxide at which there is a risk of causing cancer or genetic damage or effects on reproductive health?

And based on those what does "not significantly" mean? It sounds like a scientific term.

Thanks

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:07pm

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 10:56pm'Disputed status'. Can you elaborate a little, please? Regarding what 'disputed status' means, since titanium oxide is regarded as safe for use in commercially available sunblock.

I used a block with this in, years ago - should I be concerned?

I wouldn't be concerned in the least about using as recommended a commercial product sold in the EU or the UK.

That is perhaps where we diverge. History shows how people have been harmed by blindly trusting commercial products in the belief they must be safe.

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:07pm But it wasn't me that brought up "a bottle of chemicals"or "repeat once they've been absorbed into the body" or "knowing what's used on your body" or "anywhere near as hazardous as some of the stuff many regularly ingest". Or the idea that traditional preparations are safe because they're traditional.

How does mentioning any of the above make any difference? It's almost as if you're energized because I draw attention to what the skincare, pharma and food industries would prefer not to be widely known.

I didn't state that because something is 'traditional', it is safe - nor was said friend. Perhaps smoking is the best example of how this clearly isn't the case - something the both the medical establishment and tobacco industries denied for years, even when very clear evidence suggested to the contrary.

Jdsk wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:07pm But I wouldn't handle titanium dioxide powder without adequate precautions. So I wouldn't make my own sun block if it required me to do that.

Of course - in the same way we take precautions not to inhale french chalk powder when puncture repairing, the nano-particulates from a wood stove or modern diesel engine, emissions from car interiors when exposed to the sun etc.

Supplied with an oxide powder should be a H&S sheet, detailing handling and so on.

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:44pmIn contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized.

What commercial source of titanium dioxide doesn't contain nanoparticles?

Thanks

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:04am

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:44pmIn contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized.

What commercial source of titanium dioxide doesn't contain nanoparticles?

Thanks

Jonathan

No idea, the chap who orders it should know but I don't think he would choose to be involved with any of this discussion(!)- but I'll send a link and ask.

I would suggest a suncream made with the smallest oxide particles will be see-through or clear. One made with larger particles will be white in appearance. The smaller the particle, perhaps the easier it is to pass into the skin and beyond.

Biospace wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:23am

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:04am

Biospace wrote: ↑18 Jul 2022, 11:44pmIn contrast, oxide powders in suncreams are not significantly absorbed into your body unless nano-sized.

What commercial source of titanium dioxide doesn't contain nanoparticles?

No idea, the chap who orders it should know but I don't think he would choose to be involved with any of this discussion(!)- but I'll send a link and ask.
...

Please do.

(I'm not aware of any.)

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:25am

Biospace wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:23am

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:04am
What commercial source of titanium dioxide doesn't contain nanoparticles?

No idea, the chap who orders it should know but I don't think he would choose to be involved with any of this discussion(!)- but I'll send a link and ask.
...

Please do.

(I'm not aware of any.)

Jonathan

The nanoparticles are part of how titanium dioxide works as a sunscreen, though. They are considered safe for humans, based upon currently available evidence. However, it's a relatively young field & we are still learning how to evaluate the use of nanoparticles in stuff like sunscreen and cosmetics.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00575/full

On a ride at the weekend, someone was using coconut oil as sunscreen. He said it was effective in stopping him burning but does attract dust.

Bmblbzzz wrote: ↑20 Jul 2022, 8:43am On a ride at the weekend, someone was using coconut oil as sunscreen. He said it was effective in stopping him burning but does attract dust.

Coconut oil isn't enough for me, but it does help. It can be mixed with other natural ingredients to make a complete & effective sunblock. I have a friend who does that. I don't know what all is in her blend. Jojoba is one of the other ingredients. I think she puts a couple of other oils in, as well.

There are some sunblock recipes on-line, if folks want to try stuff like that. I would recommend doing additional research about the effectiveness and/or ingredients before doing so, however.

Here are some examples
https://thecoconutmama.com/coconut-oil-sunscreen/
https://www.feelgoodfamily.cz/how-to-ma ... n--guide-/

This blogger has done some research and includes some links
https://www.theoceanpreneur.com/impact/ ... sunscreen/

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:25am

Biospace wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:23am

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:04am
What commercial source of titanium dioxide doesn't contain nanoparticles?

No idea, the chap who orders it should know but I don't think he would choose to be involved with any of this discussion(!)- but I'll send a link and ask.
...

Please do.

(I'm not aware of any.)

Jonathan

He stopped using the titanium oxide a few years ago, finding zinc on its own was very nearly as good.

Vorpal wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 8:43am

Jdsk wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:25am

Biospace wrote: ↑19 Jul 2022, 12:23am
No idea, the chap who orders it should know but I don't think he would choose to be involved with any of this discussion(!)- but I'll send a link and ask.
...

Please do.

(I'm not aware of any.)

Jonathan

The nanoparticles are part of how titanium dioxide works as a sunscreen, though. They are considered safe for humans, based upon currently available evidence. However, it's a relatively young field & we are still learning how to evaluate the use of nanoparticles in stuff like sunscreen and cosmetics.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00575/full

I see there are zinc oxide sunblocks on sale which advertise themselves as 'non-nano'. https://www.suniskillingme.com/non-nano ... sunscreen/