Food poverty-the way out

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Biospace
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Biospace »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 3:51pm
I don't know why you think it is a more accurate representation. Studies show that the poor are at higher risk of obesity.

What I said was made to give a fuller picture of the situation - yes, we all understand the poor are unfortunately more likely to become obese, but it's too easy to fall in to the trap of directly blaming relative poverty for this as the cause when it's clear it is just one of many and complex factors involved in the process. There are many, many 'poor' people who remain fit and relatively lean through a life of activity.

The world's truly poor would suggest you've to have a physically relatively easy life and a significant amount of money to be able to grow obese. In saying this, I'm in no way suggesting that those supported by the State are in a comfortable position, I think relying on others' money long term is a crippling thing to have to do.

Feeling superfluous to the world and subsequent feelings of low self worth and dis-engagement from society have a large part to play, which added to low physical expectations from childhood, a low grade diet full of high-profit processed foods, over-medication of humans and animals, a completely mechanised society with everything from a toothbrush upwards powered, and more besides, makes this a world barely any easier to navigate than it ever has been. In many respects, we've just changed the nature of the poverty.

We've been lacking any good political leadership for decades with respect to social matters, I only hope something good can emerge from the crazy situation we see ahead.
Biospace
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Biospace »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 3:25pm
I did not intend to state that everyone who goes mountain walking can afford organic food.

I did n't phrase it very well, but there is a relationship between them. It would have been better to say that people who can afford organic food are more likely to have the time to go mountain walking.

I know there are plenty of folks who don't fit that socio-economic picture that go mountain walking. But there are few folks who are working poor, especially those working multiple jobs, doing a side hustle for extra money, working zero hours contract jobs, etc. that have the time or money to get to the mountains, let alone walk them, unless they happen to be lucky enough to have mountains on their doorstep; even then, time is an issue.

I think I have an idea of what you're getting at, it's possibly in no small part to do with education in some form or other - whether received from others or self-taught - which marks out many of those who tramp around on in our higher places.

What is clear is that an under-class has emerged, something the nation as a whole should make every effort to pull out of their drudgery. The expectations of many of our young people are several degrees lower than that a generation ago.
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 5:53pmThe expectations of many of our young people are several degrees lower than that a generation ago.
Did you have any particular expectations in mind, please?

The opportunities for higher education are better than ever, and many young people are taking them.

The opportunities to study and work abroad have just got a lot worse.

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Mick F wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 3:24pm The poor used to be thin, and the rich used to be fat.

Why has that changed 180deg?

You don't need to answer, as I know, and we all know, why that reversal happened.
It's like an old retired farm labourer said in our local a few years ago - "there's all these middle class [rude word removed] telling us to stop driving and cycle instead. The buggers weren't saying that when we were all on bikes and they were the only people with cars".
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Cugel
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Cugel »

simonineaston wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 11:40am
The share of home-cooked food in the diet of UK households declined from the 1980s. This was contemporaneous with a decline in the market price of ingredients for home cooking relative to ready-to-eat foods.
That's just a hint at how complex the whole subject is... what influence was there on our habits, of say advertising, of the assertion that pops up everywhere, that we are all "pressed for time", or indeed of the ubiquitous and v. popular phenomenon of the celeb. or tv, chef. Day by day, we see dishes paraded in front of us, photographed lovingly and with great skill, all the while given a running commentary telling us how easy it is to cook, how acheivable they really are, and then fast foward to the trip to the supermarket, where the stark reality of buying the ingredients of all the super-fine dishes we've spent the last few days gazing at, sinks in (if we can remember the long list of ingredients at all, that is...!).
Is it any wonder that faced with the challange of reproducing those paragons of the culinary arts, we capitulate and buy the ready meal, with all its reduced risk of failure and the promise of a great, finished, successful dish, just 20 minutes reheating time away... ?
The power of the industry, its colossal r&d budgets, its determination to sell us exactly what it wants us to buy, the huge and powerful advertising campaigns and their unceasing and very effective lobbying of our law makers cannot be underestimated. We are, more or less, slaves to their desires and are often powerless to resist. Its not popular to characterise us as weak, gullible and malliable, but that, dear reader, is mostly how it is. You need a wealth of income, time, education and determination to resist...
Throughout the 80s-noughties, when both me and the ladywife worked, we ate home-cooked meals that one or both of us prepared each morning and evening from basic ingredients. Occasionally we might use a sauce-in-a-jar to add to the veg (later meat & veg) but mostly even the sauces were "home made". Cooking was regarded as normal, even if we sometimes became elaborate enough to make it something of a hobby. In fact, making it a hobby was part of the motivation for doing it, on top of the "eat well" thing.

The lunchtime meal was generally sandwiches made by ourselves, along with fruit and sometimes a home made cake (luxury). Even the bread was generally home-made albeit in a bread maker machine.

None of this was onerous - although we didn't have children living with us or any others to cater to besides ourselves. In fact, it was a pleasurable pursuit, the cooking. But then we didn't go out drinking, eating and razzing; or watch more than an hour of tele a couple of times a week before bed.

In short, even when working our often demanding jobs (8-6 rather than 9-5 on many days) we found time to cook. It was a matter of choice, not "time-pressure". We chose not to be couch potatoes or madly socialising drunkards, cinema-goers or any of the other things supposedly essential and taking up whole evenings.

************
Many regarded this as "being snobbish". In some ways it was, as we indulged in shaking our heads and rolling our eyes at folk around us slowly turning into harassed blobs full of junk fud and unable to run at all, let alone for a bus. (They all had a car each). We blamed our mammies and the proper upbringing they gave us, see? :-)

But that was us, then. Many have genuine time pressures (excess working hours/days, children etc.) that severely restrict the time it takes to cook things from scratch. But some have plenty of opportunity yet prefer the pleasures of processed food, of various qualities from nutritious-enough to junk, eaten whilst gawping at the idiotbox for hours at a time. Many become semi-addicted to stuff full of salt, sugar and other ingredients for which a craving can develop.

Cugel, just finishing Welsh lamb hot-pot with root veg, steamed broccoli & garden peas with Pembroke new tatties.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Biospace
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 6:06pm
Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 5:53pmThe expectations of many of our young people are several degrees lower than that a generation ago.
Did you have any particular expectations in mind, please?

The opportunities for higher education are better than ever, and many young people are taking them.

The opportunities to study and work abroad have just got a lot worse.

Jonathan

I was in a local town earlier and chatting to the supermarket checkout lad having paid for the produce, it turned out my old university was his first choice so, as it was quiet, he took the chance to ask some questions. The modern languages courses still offered students the same second year placements at a choice of European and North African universities as a few decades ago, the biggest difference was his expectations of what sort of opportunities there would be as a graduate.

He was already worrying about home ownership in the UK, suggesting that to have the opportunity of owning a reasonably nice house in England was remote unless you were an all-out careerist. The idea was to go out to Vietnam and teach, where there would be a much higher quality of life and British graduates, especially from good universities, were highly valued. It sounded as if there were several of his year group who had similar intentions, so I asked why not France or another European country where properties could be rented or bought much more cheaply. The rates of pay compared with the cost of living, apparently. I hadn't even considered these things as an 18 year old.
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Jdsk wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 6:06pm
Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 5:53pmThe expectations of many of our young people are several degrees lower than that a generation ago.
Did you have any particular expectations in mind, please?

The opportunities for higher education are better than ever, and many young people are taking them.

The opportunities to study and work abroad have just got a lot worse.

Jonathan
My father-in-law left school in 1940 at the age of eighteen. He said back then someone with good school leaving certificate passes(equivalent of O levels) could train as a solicitor or another proper profession under articles. Later the entry requirements change dto A levels and then to a degree. Back then people still had to pass professional exams but worked towards these on the job - or even in a more unconventional way. One of his friends passed his chartered surveyors exam by correspondence course while he was a guest in a Stalag Luft. Another of his friends who left school at sixteen entered a major bank and finished his career as it's general manager and chairman of Access. That would require at least a first degree these days.

The effect of improved opportunities for higher education for many yound people is that they enter a job or profession with large debts, accumulated while studying for a degree level qualification. All this to enable them to enter a profession for which school level qualifications were quite adequate in the past.

Seventy years ago young people with the equivalent of GCSEs could enter a major profession. Not now. Of course their expectations are lower.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Vorpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 6:06pm
Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 5:53pmThe expectations of many of our young people are several degrees lower than that a generation ago.
Did you have any particular expectations in mind, please?

The opportunities for higher education are better than ever, and many young people are taking them.

The opportunities to study and work abroad have just got a lot worse.

Jonathan
The opportunities are better than ever for those who can afford them.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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Mick F
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Mick F »

pete75 wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 6:11pm
Mick F wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 3:24pm The poor used to be thin, and the rich used to be fat.

Why has that changed 180deg?

You don't need to answer, as I know, and we all know, why that reversal happened.
It's like an old retired farm labourer said in our local a few years ago - "there's all these middle class [rude word removed] telling us to stop driving and cycle instead. The buggers weren't saying that when we were all on bikes and they were the only people with cars".
Spot on!!!
:D
Mick F. Cornwall
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simonineaston
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

You don't need to answer, as I know, and we all know, why that reversal happened.
Well, if you really do know, you're doing as well as, or better than, most of the folks who're looking into the subject - Well Done You !!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
pwa
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pwa »

Sugar is high in calories, and cheap. If I wanted to fill up on sugary stuff I could do it without spending a lot. So even the poor can afford to be fat. But cooking is now becoming expensive, with fuel price rises, so preparing healthy cooked food from raw ingedients is already beyond some people's budget. Meat has become very expensive. Quick to heat ready meals are a costly way to feed yourself. The only cheap way of getting your calories is sugary stuff. With little protein, vitamins and minerals.
axel_knutt
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by axel_knutt »

pwa wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 10:50am Sugar is high in calories, and cheap. If I wanted to fill up on sugary stuff I could do it without spending a lot. So even the poor can afford to be fat. But cooking is now becoming expensive, with fuel price rises, so preparing healthy cooked food from raw ingedients is already beyond some people's budget. Meat has become very expensive. Quick to heat ready meals are a costly way to feed yourself. The only cheap way of getting your calories is sugary stuff. With little protein, vitamins and minerals.
Healthy food itself is more expensive, not just the cost of the fuel to cook it.
https://www.cedar.iph.cam.ac.uk/2014/10 ... ods-grows/
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 6:36pmHealthy food itself is more expensive, not just the cost of the fuel to cook it.
https://www.cedar.iph.cam.ac.uk/2014/10 ... ods-grows/
Thanks for that.

The link at the bottom to the original paper is duff. Should be:
"The Growing Price Gap between More and Less Healthy Foods: Analysis of a Novel Longitudinal UK Dataset"
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0109343

And the lead author wrote this in 2020:
"Environmental approaches to promote healthy eating: Is ensuring affordability and availability enough?"
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n549

Jonathan
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Mick F
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Mick F »

pwa wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 10:50am Sugar is high in calories, and cheap. If I wanted to fill up on sugary stuff I could do it without spending a lot. So even the poor can afford to be fat. But cooking is now becoming expensive, with fuel price rises, so preparing healthy cooked food from raw ingedients is already beyond some people's budget. Meat has become very expensive. Quick to heat ready meals are a costly way to feed yourself. The only cheap way of getting your calories is sugary stuff. With little protein, vitamins and minerals.
Exactly.

Not eating well, whilst eating rubbish is a cheap existence, and it's all the poor can afford.
Mick F. Cornwall
jois
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by jois »

pwa wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 10:50am Sugar is high in calories, and cheap. If I wanted to fill up on sugary stuff I could do it without spending a lot. So even the poor can afford to be fat. But cooking is now becoming expensive, with fuel price rises, so preparing healthy cooked food from raw ingedients is already beyond some people's budget. Meat has become very expensive. Quick to heat ready meals are a costly way to feed yourself. The only cheap way of getting your calories is sugary stuff. With little protein, vitamins and minerals.
I don't think that's is necessarily the case. Depending of course on what you call exspensive and healthy.

Certainly a diet healthier than a load of sugar isn't greatly exspensive. Rice is cheap.pasta is cheap potatos are cheap frozen veg is cheap. Some meat is relatively cheap.

Sugar of course is addictive, there are more issues than finding cheap cals to replace it , to stopping eating so much of it
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