Food poverty-the way out

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Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:43pmA neighbour is a HGV driver, he tells me that the lack of foreign drivers has meant that he’s now able to command a better wage.
Yes. It's also brought our supply chains to a halt on several occasions. And increased food prices.

This would have been much better handled by a higher minimum wage. And much better working conditions, as promised by the government but not yet seen in the wild. We now have HGVs parked along the motorway without toilets or showers. It's a national disgrace.

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:50pm
Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:43pmDo I want the UK to be very rich. The answer would be no I want the UK people to be happy, free and well fed.
Roughly how low could we drop per capita GDP and provide acceptable levels of healthcare and social care and education and policing?

Thanks

Jonathan
I suspect that you’re asking me questions to which you already know the answer. IMHO GDP is the wrong measure of a country’s success and we should be looking towards other measures such as happiness and the provision of services. Services do cost money but if everyone is on a lower wage then vast amounts of money are not spent, and if people aren’t chasing high cost homes and high cost vehicles there’s a lot more money left for them to enjoy living on which would include providing acceptable levels of healthcare, social care, education and policing.
Last edited by Carlton green on 19 May 2022, 7:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:54pm
Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:28pm
al_yrpal wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:22pmAs for manufacturing Thatcher and Joseph wiped out large sectors of it long ago rather than usefully legislating to reform it. Whats left is pretty good in parts.
Manufacturing in the UK is a major employer and wealth creator and therefore funder of public services and a major source of exports.

I don't understand why this is so commonly decried in this forum. It may be because we don't have the obvious massive factories in the way that we did when people were growing up. Or perhaps it's part of the far too common declinism and Golden Agery, as if it somehow simply must be a failure.
As I read things you misunderstand the comments. There once was a time when we manufactured aircraft, ships, cloths, carpets, pots and pans, cars, cloth, tyres, taxis, clocks, televisions, musical instruments, shoes, electric kettles, machine tools, bicycles and indeed any and everything that any one and any company would wish to buy. What we have now is a shadow of its former self with some things hanging on in some depleted way. Yes, we do have some newer industries like media and professional services but the bedrock of product provision has disappeared and that’s really not good.
I'm much more interested in the current and future contribution of manufacturing to the economy and the quality of life than the past. It's an extremely successful sector and could be even better.

Jonathan

United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
https://www.worldstopexports.com/united ... p-exports/

The following export product groups categorize the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2021. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from Great Britain.

Machinery including computers: US$67.6 billion (14.7% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $65.7 billion (14.3%)
Vehicles: $40.1 billion (8.7%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $33.7 billion (7.3%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $26.4 billion (5.7%)
Pharmaceuticals: $23.3 billion (5.1%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $20.4 billion (4.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $13.9 billion (3%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $12.3 billion (2.7%)
Organic chemicals: $11 billion (2.4%)
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 7:01pm
Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:50pm
Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:43pmDo I want the UK to be very rich. The answer would be no I want the UK people to be happy, free and well fed.
Roughly how low could we drop per capita GDP and provide acceptable levels of healthcare and social care and education and policing?
I suspect that you’re asking me questions to which you already know the answer. IMHO GDP is the wrong measure of a country’s success and we should be looking towards other measures such as happiness and the provision of services. Services do cost money but if everyone is on a lower wage then vast amounts of money are not spent and if people aren’t chasing high cost homes and high cost vehicles there’s a lot more money left for them to enjoy living on which would include providing acceptable levels of healthcare, social care, education and policing.
The answer is that we need to increase productivity and wealth creation if we want world-class public services.

But I totally agree about the importance of measuring and publishing studies of happiness and quality of services.

Jonathan

PS: The defects in using GDP as a measure of output are well-known. But using any other measure means that we simply won't have the data to carry out any useful analysis or discussion.
Carlton green
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Carlton green »

If we want world class public service then the answer is to fund them properly and to do so we have to raise money via appropriate taxation. Here in the UK we fail to do that so much wealth is created but the companies and individuals involved underpay or evade taxation. In such circumstances increasing productivity and wealth creation has no useful effect.

To value industry purely in terms of exports and in terms of high intellectual property goods is flawed. The home market stays when the external one disappears - which can happen very quickly - being self reliant as a country has great value and having a broad range of work for the less intellectually able is massively important to the social health of the country too. It should also be noted and understood too that technical superiority is exceedingly hard to maintain, and that the value of intellectually property can disappear in months and with it the export market for a factory’s products. In contrast to high tech products the market for simpler yet well made products endures indefinitely and so does the associated employment. In general we should be working towards the vast bulk of what we use being made in the UK and ideally, but not necessarily always, designed in the UK too.

If COVID, the blockage of the Suez Canal, shortages of electronic components and the war in Ukraine have taught us anything it should be that the world is a place subject to completely unexpected external events. We can’t isolate ourselves from such events but we can make ourselves much more resilient by limiting what we import and supplying our needs from within our own country. In a way that brings us back to food poverty here in the UK, if we could feed ourselves then we could distance ourself from external events.
Last edited by Carlton green on 20 May 2022, 7:22am, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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The IfS has published the latest inflation figures broken down by income.
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/16058

Screenshot 2022-05-19 at 20.40.37.png

"Until this point, IFS work has shown that households across all income groups have faced similar rates of inflation. However, as the poorest households spend more of their total budget on gas and electricity, we now see inflation hitting the poorest households harder. In April, the bottom 10% of the population in terms of income faced an inflation rate of 10.9%, which was 3 percentage points higher than the inflation rate of the richest 10%. Most of this difference comes from the fact that the poorest households spend 11% of their total household budget on gas and electricity, compared to 4% for the richest households."

And the corresponding income figures:
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/16054

Screenshot 2022-05-19 at 20.44.04.png

The top 1% of earners saw a sharp increase in pay between February and March 2022, of 2.3% in cash terms, compared to 0.5% for the median earner and just 0.1% for the bottom 10% of earners. This exacerbates the trend towards greater earnings inequality that we’ve seen since the start of the pandemic – in contrast to the years before the pandemic, when the lowest-paid saw the biggest pay rises. The latest jump seems to reflect a rise in bonuses, and it remains to be seen whether this trend continues. If so, for all the talk about labour shortages driving up low pay, the legacy of the pandemic may be greater earnings inequality."

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

"Iceland is to launch a new discount for shoppers who are over 60, as soaring prices hit household budgets.
"The supermarket chain said it would offer over-60s 10% off every Tuesday to support its older customers through the cost of living crisis."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61512945

Jonathan
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by PedallingSquares »

axel_knutt wrote: 19 May 2022, 1:38pm
PedallingSquares wrote: 19 May 2022, 12:34pmI had 3 poached eggs on 3 slices of seeded bread with 1/4 tin of chopped Toms, a yoghurt and an apple. No idea what it cost
About £1.68 for 850kcal if you're buying budget brands like me.
At £1.97/1000kcal that's about 16 times the Lee Anderson budget, and 10% fewer calories than Pebble's porridge.
Not budget brands,except the tinned Toms.
Lee Anderson's budget is a joke and an insult.Tonight we are having 'Mediterranean Lamb shanks with Couscous'.OK so Couscous is fairly cheap but the Lamb shanks alone were £18 for three!!!!!So right there it must be about £7pp including all the other ingredients.30p my rear-end :oops: :oops:
I went to Asda for a top-up shop and bought nothing that was not on the list my wife had done.Just essentials and stuff for the meals we had planned.I estimated there must be about £30 worth of stuff as I was checking out.£82 and a few pence!!!!!We'd spent £140 only last week!
I thought my wife was exaggerating when she told me she spends £450+ on food per month for the three of us!
I really don't know how those on benefits or low incomes and state pensions get by :|
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al_yrpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by al_yrpal »

Lamb is now horrendously expensive. Yesterday I bought two pork chops from our family butcher for £4.04, and 4 small lamb chops of the same overall weight and they cost £8.36...double!

During the foot and mouth epidemic I seem to remember that during their short lives lambs pass through multiple hands, all no doubt adding their cut driving up prices. Perhaps our resident shepherd can explain?

I clearly remember when lamb shanks cost £1 each!

Al
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Pebble
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Pebble »

PedallingSquares wrote: 19 May 2022, 12:34pm
Pebble wrote: 19 May 2022, 9:42am just had Breakfast - 170g porridge oats 13.6p + pint milk 28.5p = 937 calories for 42 pence + electric for heating 3.7p
that is a quality breakfast for less than 50p
Quality?
Warm wall-paper paste :|
I had 3 poached eggs on 3 slices of seeded bread with 1/4 tin of chopped Toms,a yoghurt and an apple.No idea what it cost but that's a good breakfast.
I doubt it came in at the 30p one can allegedly feed oneself for but there you go.
No better food than Porridge if you are doing big milages on the bike - all to do with the slow way it releases its energy. Appart from a couple of oranges that kept me going for 60 mile yesterday.


axel_knutt wrote: 19 May 2022, 2:43pm
Pebble wrote: 19 May 2022, 8:00am I think the media are winding people up into a frenzy to think that food and heat is more unaffordable than it is - you could live in a warm house and eat well for less than a packet of smokes a day, but some choose the later.
This is my expenditure for the 2021/2022 financial year.
Pie.png
I think food/fuel poverty is defined as >10% of your budget.
assuming you only have the bbc licence: £3.50 a day for food is not a significant amount - there was something on the radio yesterday of a 40k per year police officer needing to rely on food banks, it has to be a total mismanagement of income. Eating well is not expensive


Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:01pm
Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 5:47pmThe results I see are a nation that can’t grow enough food to fill its mouths, a nation that cannot house its indigenous population, a nation that has lost the ability to manufacture a wide range of goods, and a nation that does not value its own working class because anyone and anything can be imported.
How do you think that the UK got to be so rich?

When do you think that the UK was most recently self-sufficient for food?

Do you think that the recent raising of barriers to trade in goods and services and to movement of labour has made the UK richer? Or the UK's poorest less poor?

Thanks

Jonathan
The UK is stupidly overpopulated - we only have the resources to to cope with 20 million in a long term sustainable manner.


Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:32pm
Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:27pm
Pebble wrote: 19 May 2022, 8:00am I think the media are winding people up into a frenzy to think that food and heat is more unaffordable than it is - you could live in a warm house and eat well for less than a packet of smokes a day, but some choose the later.
It’s very easy to condemn the poor however people do not choose to be poor, being poor is where many people end up through bad luck, poor education, and poor health. Maybe some lack self restraint too but the same can be said of the rich, maybe some do smoke or drink or take drugs but for some people those are props to get them through the day. It’s easy to condemn faceless others but once you start talking to people you realise that ‘but for the grace of God go I’.
Well said.

Blaming the poor for being poor is a very nasty habit.

Determining the next generation's poverty by their parents' poverty, whether that was a matter of chance or self-imposed, is even nastier.

Jonathan
this is sort of implying that I was blaming the poor for being poor - clearly I wasn't, I am suggesting that you don't need very much money to eat well.
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by PedallingSquares »

Pebble wrote: 20 May 2022, 10:22am No better food than Porridge if you are doing big milages on the bike - all to do with the slow way it releases its energy. Appart from a couple of oranges that kept me going for 60 mile yesterday.
I beg to differ.
I couldn't ride 5 miles on porridge.If I eat porridge I'm hungry less than an hour later.I really don't get the slow release rubbish it simply doesn't work for me!I'd ride further on packet crisps than I would on a bowl of porridge!
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2022, 7:01pm
I'm much more interested in the current and future contribution of manufacturing to the economy and the quality of life than the past. It's an extremely successful sector and could be even better.

Jonathan

United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
https://www.worldstopexports.com/united ... p-exports/

The following export product groups categorize the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2021. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from Great Britain.

Machinery including computers: US$67.6 billion (14.7% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $65.7 billion (14.3%)
Vehicles: $40.1 billion (8.7%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $33.7 billion (7.3%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $26.4 billion (5.7%)
Pharmaceuticals: $23.3 billion (5.1%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $20.4 billion (4.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $13.9 billion (3%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $12.3 billion (2.7%)
Organic chemicals: $11 billion (2.4%)
Here's what exports from a nation with a successful manufacturing sector looks like - Germany from the same source as your data.

Machinery including computers: US$268.6 billion (16.5% of total exports)
Vehicles: $246 billion (15.1%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $176.4 billion (10.8%)
Pharmaceuticals: $118 billion (7.3%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $83.8 billion (5.2%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $76.3 billion (4.7%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $43.3 billion (2.7%)
Articles of iron or steel: $33.9 billion (2.1%)
Other chemical goods: $32.9 billion (2%)
Iron, steel: $32.7 billion (2%)
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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simonineaston
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

This is one of the things that's so interesting about individuals and nutrition - we're all the same but we're all different!
I have to say, porridge works for me reasonably well too in the sense that a portion eaten with a banana or dried fruit like prunes or apricots, can keep me going * longer than most other breakfasts.
As for porridge versus crisps, broadly speaking they might have a similar calorific value - in the region of 200 calories per 100g serving, say, although loading the porridge with honey, cream, peanut butter, fruits etc will boost that value. I add Complan. As for how quickly they are converted into energy at the muscle face, I don't know - my own experience is that crisps are here today and gone tomorrow - or to put it another way, the second you eat them, it's as if they've never existed... !
That reminds me of a couplet that I'd hear around the office I used to work in, a few years ago, oft times quoted when the choccie biccies came out - "Just a moment on the lips, but stay forever on the hips.".
Imagine how popular I was when I trotted out my own version which went, "Just a moment on the lips - then they're gone forever - regardless of how many I eat!". Ah, metabolisms, eh ?!
* on reflection, I can see the comedic potential in this sentance - I rely on others to supply the punchline...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2022, 6:27pm
It’s very easy to condemn the poor however people do not choose to be poor, being poor is where many people end up through bad luck, poor education, and poor health. Maybe some lack self restraint too but the same can be said of the rich, maybe some do smoke or drink or take drugs but for some people those are props to get them through the day. It’s easy to condemn faceless others but once you start talking to people you realise that ‘but for the grace of God go I’.
As Samuel Johnson put it
What signifies, says some one, giving halfpence to beggars? they only lay it out in gin or tobacco. "And why should they be denied such sweeteners of their existence (says Johnson)? it is surely very savage to refuse them every possible avenue to pleasure, reckoned too coarse for our own acceptance. Life is a pill which none of us can bear to swallow without gilding; yet for the poor we delight in stripping it still barer, and are not ashamed to shew even visible displeasure, if ever the bitter taste is taken from their mouths."
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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simonineaston
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

So difficult to work out what to do for the best. Unpick it all for long enough and it's hard to conclude anything other than a simple truth - that we all of us get our riches (such as they are) from someone else...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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