Food poverty-the way out

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reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm One thing we could do is stop tax avoiders who publicly use these havens getting honours or stripping them of their honours.

Lewis Hamilton

Phillip Green

Al
But polticians and the government have been bought lock stock and barrel,the very people who should be doing something about it are part of the problem.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Pebble
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Pebble »

pete75 wrote: 24 May 2022, 6:31pm
Pebble wrote: 24 May 2022, 9:48am I would love to see a breakdown of this family of 4s budget to see how they only have £25 left for food. I have heard people on the radio who are working as Nurses teachers and police officers who are some of the best paid people in society, (well above the average incomes) claiming they need to use food banks - would love to understand where their money has gone.
You appear to be ignorant of UK salary levels if you think nurses, teachers and police officers who are some of the best paid people in society.
I'll give the example of three women I've known since university days, all the same age and all good friends who shared a house. One studied French and History and went into teaching, one studied French and English and then qualified as a solicitor and the third studied medicine and became a GP. I'll leave you to guess which one earns £100,000 a year, which pays about £100,000 income tax each year and which earns £50,000 a year. Each has been in her profession for over 30 years now.
Whatever - footballers earn even more. Your fig 50k - only 12% of workers earn this, so very much in the very best paid people in society bracket and only 30% earn more than the average, so 'above average' is still in the best paid group in society

anyone earning above the average income who claim they need to rely on foodbanks are very likely to be seriously mismanaging their money, quality food and a good healthy diet are not that expensive

pete75 wrote: 24 May 2022, 12:55pm If that really was the case I doubt you'd have such narrow, bigoted views.
bigoted
adjective
a word adopted by the far left to shout at anyone who does not share their worldly views
reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

Pebble wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:25pm .........bigoted
adjective
a word adopted by the far left to shout at anyone who does not share their worldly views
The word bigoted isn't confined to members of the political far left.
Bigoted,meaning:-
obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

Take five minutes of your time to listen to,admitedly a leftwing commentator,the reason why the country is in the state it's in and why people are going hungry:- https://youtu.be/FS9j44ToPzs
The corruption is endemic in a country that's heading down the tubes PDQ
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Pebble wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:25pm
pete75 wrote: 24 May 2022, 6:31pm
Pebble wrote: 24 May 2022, 9:48am I would love to see a breakdown of this family of 4s budget to see how they only have £25 left for food. I have heard people on the radio who are working as Nurses teachers and police officers who are some of the best paid people in society, (well above the average incomes) claiming they need to use food banks - would love to understand where their money has gone.
You appear to be ignorant of UK salary levels if you think nurses, teachers and police officers who are some of the best paid people in society.
I'll give the example of three women I've known since university days, all the same age and all good friends who shared a house. One studied French and History and went into teaching, one studied French and English and then qualified as a solicitor and the third studied medicine and became a GP. I'll leave you to guess which one earns £100,000 a year, which pays about £100,000 income tax each year and which earns £50,000 a year. Each has been in her profession for over 30 years now.
Whatever - footballers earn even more. Your fig 50k - only 12% of workers earn this, so very much in the very best paid people in society bracket and only 30% earn more than the average, so 'above average' is still in the best paid group in society

anyone earning above the average income who claim they need to rely on foodbanks are very likely to be seriously mismanaging their money, quality food and a good healthy diet are not that expensive

pete75 wrote: 24 May 2022, 12:55pm If that really was the case I doubt you'd have such narrow, bigoted views.
bigoted
adjective
a word adopted by the far left to shout at anyone who does not share their worldly views
50K is for a very senior teacher, a head of department with many years experience and it is hardly amongst the best paid jobs.

No bigot is a word used by people of all political persuasions to describe narrow minded individuals. I don't know what dictionary you're looking at but here is a generally accepted definition of the word and which certainly describes your views about people using foodbanks.

ADJECTIVE
Someone who is bigoted has strong, unreasonable prejudices or opinions and will not change them, even when they are proved to be wrong.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2022, 11:13am
Vorpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 10:45am

Is this meant to imply something about me? Or Norway? If you want to find a culprit in current energy prices, I think you need to look further east than Norway. Maybe a country that unnecessarily invaded its neighbour?
It's not Russia's invasion of the Ukraine that has caused higher energy prices, it's countries choosing not to buy oil and gas from Russia.
No,it's the energy companies choosing to make a fast buck by raising their prices by 50%+ whilst doubling their profits in the six month the war in the Ukraine has been waged that despot Putin,hellbent on total destruction of a neighbouring sovereign nation!
Nowt like a war for making money now is there?
I'm sure Putin would be quite willing to flood the market with gas and oil if we and other western nations offered to buy it. His war must be costing a lot, so he needs the money.

It'll be the lack of grain exports from Russia and the Ukraine that will be the major way that war will cause food poverty, along with fertiliser shortages - Russia is a major producer.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Cugel
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Cugel »

Vorpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 10:45am
al_yrpal wrote: 24 May 2022, 10:09am
Well, perhaps they should move to another energy rich country and live very comfortably whilst holding everyone else to ransom with huge unjustified energy price hikes?

Throughout history a minority of folk have fallen on hard times and comparitively lately food banks have been their last resort. But...18% using them is far too high. Crippling rents caused by far too few houses and too many people is not helping at all.

Al
Is this meant to imply something about me? Or Norway? If you want to find a culprit in current energy prices, I think you need to look further east than Norway. Maybe a country that unnecessarily invaded its neighbour?

Yes, 18% is too high.

Crippling rents are caused by properties left empty, or infrequently used because they are purchased as investments
https://www.bigissue.com/news/housing/o ... ting-empty
https://propertyindustryeye.com/reveale ... ant-homes/
Crippling rents are caused by city brownfield sites not being developed, or being developed as commercial sites, rather than housing. It's caused by housing that is developed for middle class families, instead of affordable housing (and complicated by the fact that no one agrees what affordable housing is https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-7747/ )
It's caused by a planning system that disconnects housing supply and housing demand. In other words, new housing is being built, but not the right types, not in the right places.

It's caused by a minimum wage that is not a living wage. Shall I go on?
It's always relatively easy to identify the most proximate causes of any event, behaviour or practice. However, if these most-proximate causes are fiddled with by tweaks of the law, or some other mechanism that reduces or even eliminates them, the various root causes and other causes in a chain leading to that proximate cause merely find other routes to exert their effects.

In one sense, this is what not-my-pal is saying when he suggests that Britain reducing tax haven opportunities in areas it controls will result in havens elsewhere increasing their churn; or new havens popping up. So, how to avoid that?

No easy answers from me but perhaps any law-maker or other political agent looking for a more resilient way to deal with the sort of social ills being discussed here should at least try to deal with root causes rather than fiddling ineffectually with proximate causes?

For example, the root cause of high rents is the set of property laws that allows landlords to charge them. Once we had rent controls that operated with the notion of "a fair rent" at their core. "A fair rent" was not "a market rent" but an amount predicated on many other factors, many of which recognised that a renter's ability to pay without having to give up eating, heating or even the abode being rented should be of primary concern.

**********
I was brought up in a council house of the late 1940s vintage. My mother lived there all her life, paying one of those old-fashioned fair rents, as did millions of others in those times. The contract was: a decent home and a fair rent in exchange for looking after the house lived in and not being a nuisance to others in the neighbourhood. The councils building, maintaining and renting the houses covered their costs (i.e. their spend of the ratepayers' money) without making vast profits.

In short, a necessary bit of social infrastructure (houses) was provided via financial mechanisms other than the modern business mechanism of most profit for least outlay accruing to only a tiny percentage of the population.

As far as I can see, there's no fundamental reason why such non-market mechanisms could not be built and used today. There are several market mechanisms that prevent such arrangements today, of course; but they are a matter of the lawmaker's choice, not a law of nature.

In even shorter, the root cause of many social ills - the property/capital laws - need a radical reform.

Cugel, a pink-livered commie under a bed, obviously. (Actually a rather old-fashioned conservative).
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simonineaston
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

It's important to understand that financial services and low tax are core elements of the UK's business offering around the world these days. That and munitions.
Since we stopped helping ourselves to the world's commodities, via the natty system of colonialism, and then a brief period of making things until the good folk in the East realised they could do that too - only better and cheaper, financial services are about all we've got to offer...
And to stay competative, we have to sail very close to the wind of legality and to stay really competative, we have to quietly offer 'special services' to all comers. We have nothing much else to offer. If that goes, we really are truly heading towards becoming a poor country.
And that, dear reader, is why we left the EU...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Mike Sales
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Mike Sales »

Cugel wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:44pm
As far as I can see, there's no fundamental reason why such non-market mechanisms could not be built and used today. There are several market mechanisms that prevent such arrangements today, of course; but they are a matter of the lawmaker's choice, not a law of nature.
I remember that when councils were forced to sell off council houses they were forbidden to use the proceeds to build more.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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simonineaston
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

ps After I did my morning shift today, I see that there's the following short-dated food stuff in abundance: asparagus - boxes and boxes of the stuff, huuuge parsnips, spinach, and mountains of pre-prepped turkey stew in sachets - weird. Last week, we couldn't move for mangoes.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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al_yrpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by al_yrpal »

No answers.....status quo then?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:16pm
reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2022, 11:13am

It's not Russia's invasion of the Ukraine that has caused higher energy prices, it's countries choosing not to buy oil and gas from Russia.
No,it's the energy companies choosing to make a fast buck by raising their prices by 50%+ whilst doubling their profits in the six month the war in the Ukraine has been waged that despot Putin,hellbent on total destruction of a neighbouring sovereign nation!
Nowt like a war for making money now is there?
I'm sure Putin would be quite willing to flood the market with gas and oil if we and other western nations offered to buy it. His war must be costing a lot, so he needs the money.
I'm sure you're correct,however,the point I was making was that energy costs to consumers(sic) are being artificially hiked up whilst energy companies profits balloon to double what they were before the Ukraine invasion!
It'll be the lack of grain exports from Russia and the Ukraine that will be the major way that war will cause food poverty, along with fertiliser shortages - Russia is a major producer.
That'll be the next thing for multinationals to make a killing(sorry) on!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

Mike Sales wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:49pm
Cugel wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:44pm
As far as I can see, there's no fundamental reason why such non-market mechanisms could not be built and used today. There are several market mechanisms that prevent such arrangements today, of course; but they are a matter of the lawmaker's choice, not a law of nature.
I remember that when councils were forced to sell off council houses they were forbidden to use the proceeds to build more.
Back to the root cause,Thatcherism! :? :wink:
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:51pm No answers.....status quo then?

Al
No answers?
There are anwers,you're just blind to them!
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al_yrpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by al_yrpal »

reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 2:07pm
al_yrpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:51pm No answers.....status quo then?

Al
No answers?
There are anwers,you're just blind to them!
??? Not blind to anything.

No one has suggested any solution that will actually ever be adopted, or anything new. Years of socialism tolerated all these things, and they did nothing. I wouldnt expect the Tories to do very much but as I remember they actually did do something on tax evasion. Cant recall exactly what?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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