Food poverty-the way out

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Vorpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Vorpal »

reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm
No,it's the energy companies choosing to make a fast buck by raising their prices by 50%+ whilst doubling their profits in the six month the war in the Ukraine has been waged that despot Putin,hellbent on total destruction of a neighbouring sovereign nation!
Nowt like a war for making money now is there?
The government raised the cap on prices, then when the companies raised their prices, gave people money. So... they could have just bribed the energy companies to keep prices lower?
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pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

rjb wrote: 26 May 2022, 8:13pm The state industries were privatised mainly during the Tory Thatcher years but they recognised the value of having some overall control and had retained golden shares in the business. Unfortunately the subsequent Labour government decided they had no value and redeemed them allowing the foreign owners to do as they wished, which led to the industry being carved up. :(
Strange then that, for example, London Electricity was purchased by Entergy, a US company in 1996 and South Western Electricity Board bought by another US firm, Southern Company in 1995.
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pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

Cugel wrote: 25 May 2022, 1:44pm
It's always relatively easy to identify the most proximate causes of any event, behaviour or practice. However, if these most-proximate causes are fiddled with by tweaks of the law, or some other mechanism that reduces or even eliminates them, the various root causes and other causes in a chain leading to that proximate cause merely find other routes to exert their effects.

In one sense, this is what not-my-pal is saying when he suggests that Britain reducing tax haven opportunities in areas it controls will result in havens elsewhere increasing their churn; or new havens popping up. So, how to avoid that?

No easy answers from me but perhaps any law-maker or other political agent looking for a more resilient way to deal with the sort of social ills being discussed here should at least try to deal with root causes rather than fiddling ineffectually with proximate causes?

For example, the root cause of high rents is the set of property laws that allows landlords to charge them. Once we had rent controls that operated with the notion of "a fair rent" at their core. "A fair rent" was not "a market rent" but an amount predicated on many other factors, many of which recognised that a renter's ability to pay without having to give up eating, heating or even the abode being rented should be of primary concern.

The large scale flogging off of the council housing stock didn't help either. Apparently in 1978 around 75% of taxpayer subsidy for housing went on publicly owned bricks and mortar. Now about the same goes in housing benefit payments to private landlords.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 26 May 2022, 8:00pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 May 2022, 4:33pm
simonineaston wrote: 26 May 2022, 4:29pm My concern is that the large proportion of foreign ownership of the so-called big six means that the profits from energy sales are directed to foreign investors. If that's the case, then it seems likely that little of that money sees its way back to improving our energy infrastructure or prices, in a way that most consumers fondly imagine is the case... !Screenshot 2022-05-26 at 16.25.55.png
All done when Nude Labour* were in power :?

*read Tories in red ties and sharp suits
No, I think state owned electricity and gas were both privatised under the Tories. Once a company's shares are traded on the stock exchange there's little or nothing the government can do to prevent a takeover bid. I can remember press articles at the time saying that after privatisation a lot of our utilities would end up in foreign ownership.
I was responding to the selling off of energy to foreign companies shown in Simon's post.
That was allowed under New Labour.
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reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

Vorpal wrote: 26 May 2022, 10:13pm
reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm
No,it's the energy companies choosing to make a fast buck by raising their prices by 50%+ whilst doubling their profits in the six month the war in the Ukraine has been waged that despot Putin,hellbent on total destruction of a neighbouring sovereign nation!
Nowt like a war for making money now is there?
The government raised the cap on prices, then when the companies raised their prices, gave people money. So... they could have just bribed the energy companies to keep prices lower?
The government could have done a LOT of things but chose not to.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by rjb »

A proportion of the windfall tax should have been used to fund insulation of housing stock instead of putting it all in people's pockets. A missed opportunity I feel.
Wasn't this promised as a way out of the pandemic and after Brexit. :?
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pete75
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 27 May 2022, 12:11am
pete75 wrote: 26 May 2022, 8:00pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 May 2022, 4:33pm

All done when Nude Labour* were in power :?

*read Tories in red ties and sharp suits
No, I think state owned electricity and gas were both privatised under the Tories. Once a company's shares are traded on the stock exchange there's little or nothing the government can do to prevent a takeover bid. I can remember press articles at the time saying that after privatisation a lot of our utilities would end up in foreign ownership.
I was responding to the selling off of energy to foreign companies shown in Simon's post.
That was allowed under New Labour.
It was also allowed under the Tories. See my post above. It's privatisation that's the problem not ownership. Do you think the companies would behave any differently if owned by a UK private equity business? The point is once a business is traded on the stock market it's exposed to takeover bids.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 7:40am
It was also allowed under the Tories. See my post above. It's privatisation that's the problem not ownership. Do you think the companies would behave any differently if owned by a UK private equity business? The point is once a business is traded on the stock market it's exposed to takeover bids.
It was encouraged under a (New) Labour government.
As Simon also posted money was allowed to be syphoned off out of the country,which could have been stopped under a (New) Labour government but wasn't!
I found out PDQ after 1997 what (New) Labour meant,they were Tories in red ties and sharp suits!
That was my point.
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reohn2
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by reohn2 »

rjb wrote: 27 May 2022, 7:22am A proportion of the windfall tax should have been used to fund insulation of housing stock instead of putting it all in people's pockets. A missed opportunity I feel.
Wasn't this promised as a way out of the pandemic and after Brexit. :?
And pretty soon forgotten.......
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Jdsk
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

rjb wrote: 27 May 2022, 7:22am A proportion of the windfall tax should have been used to fund insulation of housing stock instead of putting it all in people's pockets. A missed opportunity I feel.
Massive increases in insulation standards and appropriate incentives to implement them are needed. But on a timescale and with a consistency that is completely different from this sort of announcement or annual Budgets or the life of a Parliament.

Jonathan
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 27 May 2022, 8:29am
pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 7:40am
It was also allowed under the Tories. See my post above. It's privatisation that's the problem not ownership. Do you think the companies would behave any differently if owned by a UK private equity business? The point is once a business is traded on the stock market it's exposed to takeover bids.
It was encouraged under a (New) Labour government.
As Simon also posted money was allowed to be syphoned off out of the country,which could have been stopped under a (New) Labour government but wasn't!
I found out PDQ after 1997 what (New) Labour meant,they were Tories in red ties and sharp suits!
That was my point.
Encouraged? In what way?

How can a government stop shares being bought and sold on the stock exchange?

Using your and Simon's logic the entire British car industry is "syphoning" money out the country, it's all owned by those despicable "foreigners".
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

It's deeply deeply depressing that whereas the fuel crisis should have been an ideal opportunity to put in place a policy of building insulation across the country, as a double fix (to both the short term and the long term crisis), it hasn't even been mentioned...and people wonder why I am pessimistic about whether or not we'll survive.
Using your and Simon's logic the entire British car industry is "syphoning" money out the country, it's all owned by those despicable "foreigners".
well now you mention it, it's best to recall that the vehicle industry makes profits, not from the vehicles, but from the finance deals that buy them... As DT said in All The President's Men, follow the money...
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Pebble »

reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2022, 12:18pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2022, 11:13am
Vorpal wrote: 25 May 2022, 10:45am

Is this meant to imply something about me? Or Norway? If you want to find a culprit in current energy prices, I think you need to look further east than Norway. Maybe a country that unnecessarily invaded its neighbour?
It's not Russia's invasion of the Ukraine that has caused higher energy prices, it's countries choosing not to buy oil and gas from Russia.
No,it's the energy companies choosing to make a fast buck by raising their prices by 50%+ whilst doubling their profits in the six month the war in the Ukraine has been waged that despot Putin,hellbent on total destruction of a neighbouring sovereign nation!
Nowt like a war for making money now is there?
Or is it the strange global cartel/monopoly with oil and gas prices? Production of oil and gas has not become more expensive so why has Norway (along with other produces) decided they need to charge the new higher prices? Simple, its greed they are going to go to the highest bidder. Bung all the cash in the bank and blame it all on some global price setting structure they have no control over.

Heck. even the price of firewood is rocketing, apparently its related to oil prices! (absolutely no shortage of the stuff since arwin) but its up 50% or more. Any excuse to make more money.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 7:40amIt's privatisation that's the problem not ownership. Do you think the companies would behave any differently if owned by a UK private equity business?
For the effects of energy supply on quality of life I agree.

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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by al_yrpal »

Apparently second homes get the £400 too! Time to sort that out..

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