Food poverty-the way out

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Vorpal
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Vorpal »

al_yrpal wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 7:51pm
Vorpal wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 12:43pm
You have no idea why they are overweight, or what they actually eat. Just because someone has a bunch of processed foods in their trolley doesn't even mean it's even for them! They might be shopping for a relative & getting a bunch of pre-made meals or processed food because that's what that person wants. Or they might have problems with something commonly use in foods and have carefully selected foods which avoid that thing. Or they might have bought stuff that they have coupons for. Or they might be chronically ill and need food that is easy to do because they aren't sick enough to get benefits, still have to work full time, & don't have the energy to prepare food. Or they might shop at that supermarket once in every month or two & only buy processed foods there, and do the rest of their shopping at other places.

You don't like it when other people assume things about you, why do you think it's ok to do it about others?
Thats an awful lot of assumptions and excuses by you. Cant see why you criticise mine? The stuff in trolleysj is certainly for someone... My assumption may possibly be wrong but I believe it mostly isnt. Some folk dont seem to help themselves. When I started shopping in Aldi in 2008 there were lots of people like I describe and the veg often rotted on the shelves because so few people were buying it. It doesnt happen now the demographic has changed. Aldi is now the 4th biggest supermarket chain.

Al
I was neither making assumptions, nor excuses. I was offering possible reasons that things might be other than what you were assuming & saying that we shouldn't judge. If someone is overweight, that is between them and their doctor. What's in their trolley and who it's for is their business.

As it happens, I know people to whom two of the quoted explanations apply.
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Biospace
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Biospace »

Vorpal wrote: 14 Sep 2022, 7:37am If someone is overweight, that is between them and their doctor. What's in their trolley and who it's for is their business.

I agree, although if I see a grossly overweight person with a trolley full of crisps, cakes, processed meat products and a lot of alcohol, I find it very difficult not to feel sorry for their choices but chastise myself for jumping to conclusions.

It's impossible not to notice the greatest proportion of the healthiest-looking people are seen walking mountains and in small shops selling fresh, often organic produce. I don't chastise myself for noticing this, although perhaps I should.

Doctors spend very little time in their training studying diet and health, which I've long found unfathomable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43504125


On the subject of finding a way out of food poverty, it's a very difficult thing to achieve, purely from a physiological perspective as our taste buds take a while to be 'retrained' to adjust to unprocessed foods. There are also the psychological barriers, and also the educational ones too. The evidence suggests it is harder for adults and children today than two or three generations ago.

https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/news/12 ... aste-buds/
https://www.healthychildren.org/English ... ences.aspx
https://seriouslyfunfood.com/learn-eat- ... aste-buds/
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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Doctors spend very little time in their training studying diet and health, which I've long found unfathomable.
There is a simple explanation,which is that we live in a highly capitalised society, much changed even in only the last forty years. Everything we do, including the management of our health and welfare, is dominated by market forces, with the influence of industry lobbyists much underestimated, especially by older members of the pop., who were brought up in a political environment much more inclined to more socialist thinking.
Market forces - the monetary vaue of everything in our lives - dominates all, in today's society. Blame thinkers like Hayeck, who won a Nobel prize for his contribution in getting us into this awful state. Revolution, eventually, will be forthcoming, especially when it dawns on us that capitalism system has, in all likelihood, done for us and our planet. There is no future, where there could have been one... we are doomed. This will make certain peeps quite cross.
S
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by mumbojumbo »

Agree with much of your analysis ,but your forecast is optimistic .History shows that crises can precipitate repression ,fascism etc as in 1920s Germany
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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Biospace wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 2:34pm
I agree, although if I see a grossly overweight person with a trolley full of crisps, cakes, processed meat products and a lot of alcohol, I find it very difficult not to feel sorry for their choices but chastise myself for jumping to conclusions.

It's impossible not to notice the greatest proportion of the healthiest-looking people are seen walking mountains and in small shops selling fresh, often organic produce. I don't chastise myself for noticing this, although perhaps I should.
People who have the time to walk on mountains for fun and exercise are the same people who can afford organic food, gym memberships, and private health care.

When you have next to no money & 15 minutes for tea between one job & another, what should you do? People say you can cook ahead & freeze things, or whatever, but that only works if you have significant time off to do it. If you are scheduled to work 1 part time job 6 days a week, and the another one some evenings & weekends? And have kids or an elderly parent to look after? Or are going to school/university as well as working?

It's the poor who are at greatest risk of obesity, not the folks who can afford fresh, organic produce from the independent shop on the High Street.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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As has been commented already, the problem of the nation and its often unsatisfactory relationship to food is very complex. A lot of hard work has been done by Henry Dimbleby and his team. Readers who are interested in the subject will find the report both easy to read and somewhat depressing. It's readily available online.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... or-england
In July of last year, I published Part One of the National Food Strategy, a Government-commissioned independent review into the food system. This had originally been intended as a broad analysis of the strengths and flaws of the entire food system from farm to fork, with Part Two following on behind with recommendations. But COVID-19 intervened, and Part One became instead an urgent response to the issues of hunger and ill-health raised by the pandemic, as well as the trade and food standards issues created by the end of the EU Exit transition period.
The current government seem determined to ignore most of the report's recommendations, due presumably to industry led lobbying...
S
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by simonineaston »

as a postscript to the above, I should add that next week I'm going to attend the annual event for us volunteers at the local food share project, when we will applaud the actions of all us vollys, but in partic. one of us who raised money for the charity by undertaking a sponsored event.
Now you can discuss the morality of food-banks, food-waste, the reduction of core social services like unemployment benefits and their replacement by charity 'till the cows come home, but you have got to admire somebody who takes off from terra firma, strapped to the wing of a biplane, dressed up in a suit designed to look like a pea-pod... !!
https://faresharesouthwest.org.uk/celeb ... ndraisers/
S
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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It's his green initiative :wink:
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am
Biospace wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 2:34pm I agree, although if I see a grossly overweight person with a trolley full of crisps, cakes, processed meat products and a lot of alcohol, I find it very difficult not to feel sorry for their choices but chastise myself for jumping to conclusions.

It's impossible not to notice the greatest proportion of the healthiest-looking people are seen walking mountains and in small shops selling fresh, often organic produce. I don't chastise myself for noticing this, although perhaps I should.
People who have the time to walk on mountains for fun and exercise are the same people who can afford organic food, gym memberships, and private health care.

When you have next to no money & 15 minutes for tea between one job & another, what should you do? People say you can cook ahead & freeze things, or whatever, but that only works if you have significant time off to do it. If you are scheduled to work 1 part time job 6 days a week, and the another one some evenings & weekends? And have kids or an elderly parent to look after? Or are going to school/university as well as working?

It's the poor who are at greatest risk of obesity, not the folks who can afford fresh, organic produce from the independent shop on the High Street.
And the same in numbers:

"The decline of home-cooked food":
https://ifs.org.uk/journals/decline-home-cooked-food

"The share of home-cooked food in the diet of UK households declined from the 1980s. This was contemporaneous with a decline in the market price of ingredients for home cooking relative to ready-to-eat foods. We consider a simple model of food consumption and time use that captures the key driving forces behind these apparently conflicting trends. We show that observed behaviour can be rationalised by the fact that the shadow price of home-cooked food, which accounts for the fact that cooking takes time, has risen relative to the price of ready-to-eat food, due to the increase in the market value of time of secondary earners. We discuss the implications for policies that aim to encourage healthier diets."

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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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The share of home-cooked food in the diet of UK households declined from the 1980s. This was contemporaneous with a decline in the market price of ingredients for home cooking relative to ready-to-eat foods.
That's just a hint at how complex the whole subject is... what influence was there on our habits, of say advertising, of the assertion that pops up everywhere, that we are all "pressed for time", or indeed of the ubiquitous and v. popular phenomenon of the celeb. or tv, chef. Day by day, we see dishes paraded in front of us, photographed lovingly and with great skill, all the while given a running commentary telling us how easy it is to cook, how acheivable they really are, and then fast foward to the trip to the supermarket, where the stark reality of buying the ingredients of all the super-fine dishes we've spent the last few days gazing at, sinks in (if we can remember the long list of ingredients at all, that is...!).
Is it any wonder that faced with the challange of reproducing those paragons of the culinary arts, we capitulate and buy the ready meal, with all its reduced risk of failure and the promise of a great, finished, successful dish, just 20 minutes reheating time away... ?
The power of the industry, its colossal r&d budgets, its determination to sell us exactly what it wants us to buy, the huge and powerful advertising campaigns and their unceasing and very effective lobbying of our law makers cannot be underestimated. We are, more or less, slaves to their desires and are often powerless to resist. Its not popular to characterise us as weak, gullible and malliable, but that, dear reader, is mostly how it is. You need a wealth of income, time, education and determination to resist...
S
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by Biospace »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am
People who have the time to walk on mountains for fun and exercise are the same people who can afford organic food, gym memberships, and private health care.
That's a remarkably assumptive, misleading statement if you include the many who regularly go mountain walking and who don't fall into your socio-economic category of person.

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am When you have next to no money & 15 minutes for tea between one job & another, what should you do?
The discussion surrounding those who barely have enough time to wash between sleeping and multiple jobs/caring roles/studying is a different one from choosing ready-made food over the diy variety, although clearly the two overlap.

Our society consistently manages to ignore a host of less vote-winning issues, I suspect this winter's high food, fuel and heating costs are going to expose a lot of good work which has been done for years without recognition or anywhere near proportionate funding. The increasing disparity between rich and poor, across the economic world but especially in the 'free-market' West, is something we should be not just ashamed of but act rapidly to reverse.

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am It's the poor who are at greatest risk of obesity, not the folks who can afford fresh, organic produce from the independent shop on the High Street.
To help form a more accurate representation of life, I know of no physically hard-working people who are overweight, relatively few hard-working people who are obese, but a lot of wealthy sorts who are obese. Fresh, organic produce can be bought for Aldi/Lidl prices, if some can't find it at this then perhaps reducing consumption a little would help obesity? I know someone who grows an amazing amount of their own in a tiny, urban back yard.

The English have very effectively managed to impart a clearly-defined class system onto food so that some are quick to hang tags on those who take some interest in the quality of what they eat, which only feeds (often baseless) class-led resentment and division. It negates efforts of so many who try hard to not discriminate and try to create a more tolerant society. If more people changed their spending habits to be a little closer to the traditional French way, we'd all be better off.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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The poor used to be thin, and the rich used to be fat.

Why has that changed 180deg?

You don't need to answer, as I know, and we all know, why that reversal happened.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 2:56pm
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am
People who have the time to walk on mountains for fun and exercise are the same people who can afford organic food, gym memberships, and private health care.
That's a remarkably assumptive, misleading statement if you include the many who regularly go mountain walking and who don't fall into your socio-economic category of person.

I did not intend to state that everyone who goes mountain walking can afford organic food.

I did n't phrase it very well, but there is a relationship between them. It would have been better to say that people who can afford organic food are more likely to have the time to go mountain walking.

I know there are plenty of folks who don't fit that socio-economic picture that go mountain walking. But there are few folks who are working poor, especially those working multiple jobs, doing a side hustle for extra money, working zero hours contract jobs, etc. that have the time or money to get to the mountains, let alone walk them, unless they happen to be lucky enough to have mountains on their doorstep; even then, time is an issue.
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

Post by briansnail »

I have started buying "wonky" vegetables like carrots and mushrooms. Cuts down on supermarket waste and much cheaper. Tastes ok
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Re: Food poverty-the way out

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Biospace wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 2:56pm
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:34am It's the poor who are at greatest risk of obesity, not the folks who can afford fresh, organic produce from the independent shop on the High Street.
To help form a more accurate representation of life, I know of no physically hard-working people who are overweight, relatively few hard-working people who are obese, but a lot of wealthy sorts who are obese. Fresh, organic produce can be bought for Aldi/Lidl prices, if some can't find it at this then perhaps reducing consumption a little would help obesity? I know someone who grows an amazing amount of their own in a tiny, urban back yard.

The English have very effectively managed to impart a clearly-defined class system onto food so that some are quick to hang tags on those who take some interest in the quality of what they eat, which only feeds (often baseless) class-led resentment and division. It negates efforts of so many who try hard to not discriminate and try to create a more tolerant society. If more people changed their spending habits to be a little closer to the traditional French way, we'd all be better off.
I don't know why you think it is a more accurate representation. Studies show that the poor are at higher risk of obesity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024903/
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/pres ... ty-england
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... port-finds

Unfortunately few studies attempt to explain or breakdown the obesity inequality. Jdsk has posted one with some explanations.
https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/26/1/7/2467515 looks at some factors for children.

It's not just my opinion. People who work are at physical jobs aren't likely to be overweight or obese, but the majority of working poor are not labourers at physical jobs.

https://www.trustforlondon.org.uk/data/ ... k-poverty/

The other part of the picture is that many people in poverty live without the basic things to save & cook food. They may not have refrigerators or cookers.
1.9 million people living without a cooker (1 in 20 earning under £35,000 a year)
2.8 million people living without a freezer (1 in 10)
900,000 people living without a fridge (1 in 30)
estimated numbers from https://www.turn2us.org.uk/About-Us/Med ... 20in%2030)
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― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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