Food poverty-the way out

[pete75]

As Migration Watch is contentious I suggest another source of data, the ONS.

“ Based on our current best assessment of available sources, net migration was estimated to be in the region of 239,000 in the year ending June 2021; there is a degree of uncertainty around today’s figures, but this represents a small decrease from the year ending June 2020 (260,000).”
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... l/june2021

Maybe I’m not reading the data correctly - it’s not completely up to date either but it covers a long time span - but the World Bank seems to agree that the UK has significantly more people migrating to it than from it.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM ... cations=GB

Here’s another data source that I’d expect to be as reliable as can be found and it too supports my earlier data comments:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn06077/

One might also choose to look at this site: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... on-growth/
It seems to be fairly clear that net migration has a very - perhaps the most - significant input to UK population growth and whether purchased or rented a growing population competes for accommodation to live in.

You have support here https://bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration/ .

[Cugel]

There are several factors underpinning the shortage of homes in various locations. Perhaps an increase in population in a few locations due to immigration will affect rents or house prices ..... if the only factor involved is the "law" of supply and demand. It isn't the only factor, though; or even a significant one.

Of course, this "law" is not one of nature but a construct of various government policies and associated man-made laws. Perhaps it's the easiest to deal with in that all you have to do is change laws and build more houses?

Or, fix the other factors leading to national difficulties with rents and the housing market ..... . Besides building more homes, in a cost-effective and responsible fashion rather than following current practices, empty properties could be made homes. There are around a quarter of a million empty properties in Britain just now, not counting those that are unlet holiday homes and/or second homes. Why not write laws to force their use?

Some will argue, essentially, that we shouldn't because they're private property - i.e. not a home but someone's asset - and that's all that matters.

***********

It's easy to find a particular pariah or scapegoat class to blame for any problem. "Immigrants cause housing shortages" is a common albeit thoughtless trope. My own favourite is, "Second homes are a particularly egregious example of the notion that property is (or can be) theft". After all, no one needs a second home. But huge numbers need a first home.

************

Are higher food prices also due to a net increase in immigration too, then? Are prices going up just because there is more demand for rice and sweet potatoes? What about the price of Marmite? Is that due to too many Australians comin' over 'ere and missing their vegemite?

It's not hard to find a pariah or a scapegoat for, oh, any unwanted condition, eh? But such simplistic cause & effect arguments are, well, simple (minded).

Cugel, contemplating the causes and effects of a local bicycle glut in me bike shed.

[axel_knutt]

There’s a shortage of housing. Does anyone really wonder why:
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

If the UK was a bus or a ferry then the doors would be shut to extra passengers, there’s just a limit to what they can legally carry and likewise extra people in the UK go beyond and continue to challenge what the country can support. Second homes might be a problem but it is far from the only problem. It’s a pity that our political classes are all so bent and detached from the real world ‘cause the problems that they’re causing aren’t going to be solved easily.

Data from the migration watch site suggests to me that nett migration over the last twenty years is in the order of five million people. So in that time a group of people equal to half the population of London have come to stay in the UK. That’s a lot of houses, or rather competition for housing.
https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/londons-population.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statis ... statistics

I wondered how long it would take for an anti immigrant post. This thread is taking an increasingly xenophobic tone.

The point that I made and supported with data was about the significant lack of balance in net migration. To read it otherwise misses the point.

But you haven't produced any data for housing shortage and homelessness. I can't find any either. Germany has twice the net immigration per head that we do, do they have more housing shortage?

The best I could find re housing shortage was housing cost, which correlates strongly with net immigration across 22 European countries, but I doubt that in itself demonstrates anything other than that migrants prefer rich countries.

[thirdcrank]

Setting aside oligarchs etc., I think it's often the case that economic migrants - often intending to maximise their income and minimise their costs - tend to be attracted by the cheapest and often most overcrowded accommodation. It's typically only when the myth of return becomes impractical that they put down roots.

[Jdsk]

Setting aside oligarchs etc., I think it's often the case that economic migrants - often intending to maximise their income and minimise their costs - tend to be attracted by the cheapest and often most overcrowded accommodation. It's typically only when the myth of return becomes impractical that they put down roots.

The most convenient and accessible recent short overview of the data is:

"Migrants and Housing in the UK: Experiences and Impacts":
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... d-impacts/

Jonathan

[Pebble]

It's easy to find a particular pariah or scapegoat class to blame for any problem. "Immigrants cause housing shortages" is a common albeit thoughtless trope. My own favourite is, "Second homes are a particularly egregious example of the notion that property is (or can be) theft". After all, no one needs a second home. But huge numbers need a first home.

where do you think they all go to live - it's equivalent to a medium sized city with all its infrastructure, hospitals and schools having to be built every year. No wonder there is a major shortage of homes.

[Pebble]

There’s a shortage of housing. Does anyone really wonder why:
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

If the UK was a bus or a ferry then the doors would be shut to extra passengers, there’s just a limit to what they can legally carry and likewise extra people in the UK go beyond and continue to challenge what the country can support. Second homes might be a problem but it is far from the only problem. It’s a pity that our political classes are all so bent and detached from the real world ‘cause the problems that they’re causing aren’t going to be solved easily.

Data from the migration watch site suggests to me that nett migration over the last twenty years is in the order of five million people. So in that time a group of people equal to half the population of London have come to stay in the UK. That’s a lot of houses, or rather competition for housing.
https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/londons-population.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statis ... statistics

completely agree - the UK's land and seas are only capable of being home to about 20 million in a long term sustainable manner. Our ecological footprint is currently over 300% greater than our Biocapacity. We absolutely can not take any more people on board.

[Paulatic]

[
completely agree - the UK's land and seas are only capable of being home to about 20 million in a long term sustainable manner. Our ecological footprint is currently over 300% greater than our Biocapacity. We absolutely can not take any more people on board.

That must be a huge calculation you’ve done there. How did you work out that number and can you explain ecological footprint and Biocapacity? It’s all Greek to me.

[Cugel]

It's easy to find a particular pariah or scapegoat class to blame for any problem. "Immigrants cause housing shortages" is a common albeit thoughtless trope. My own favourite is, "Second homes are a particularly egregious example of the notion that property is (or can be) theft". After all, no one needs a second home. But huge numbers need a first home.

where do you think they all go to live - it's equivalent to a medium sized city with all its infrastructure, hospitals and schools having to be built every year. No wonder there is a major shortage of homes.

You're missing the point, Pebble.

In every sphere of goods and services, suppliers generally look for an increased demand as this means they can make an increased supply and thus grow the provision of goods & services. Why do we not do this with housing? Because there is a political pressure to increase the value of houses by keeping the supply short. It's a good catcher of votes from the propertied classes. The others without property can be persuaded to vote for the same lot based on bogeyman stories about, say, immigrants.

As to the increase in population creating the need for more goods and services, including housing for the new humans - well, this is a world-wide issue since we are rapidly growing from about 7 billion to 8 billion humans in sum, planet-wide. But perhaps you think only places that begin at Calais should cater to this increase?

********
Still, if you want the population of Britain to stay the same or even shrink, because it makes you feel more comfortable, surely there are far better policies than restricting immigration? In other spheres such as workplaces, universities, clubs and much else, one must meet the qualifications for membership. No one is born into it (apart from some aristocratic types who are apparently born to go to Eton, Oxford and The Cabinet).

So, perhaps we should have citizenship examinations? They were proposed for immigrants but perhaps they should be extended to everyone? The pass marks would need to winnow out those not fit, with these unlucky but inadequate folk being shipped out of Britain to, say, Rwanda. Would this meet your need for keeping Blighty at a stable population ad infinitum?

Advantages: we would have the best of the immigrants and the best of the natives, with the true hoi-polloi having to make their way elsewhere, as we luxuriate in cheaper houses and perhaps less crime, even Toryspiv and City financial crime (currently rife)!

"What are the exams one must pass to meet the citizenship pass mark?", you cry! Well, that depends on who writes the exam. Suppose it was the present snobyobs of the Tory party. Do you think you'd pass?

Cugel

[al_yrpal]

Ask a straightforward question on this thorny subject and all one gets is almost endless meaningless waffle, false accusations of racism and obfuscation. Nothing convincing at all.
I shall continue to trust the results of my personal observations and experiences.

Al

[Carlton green]

[
completely agree - the UK's land and seas are only capable of being home to about 20 million in a long term sustainable manner. Our ecological footprint is currently over 300% greater than our Biocapacity. We absolutely can not take any more people on board.

That must be a huge calculation you’ve done there. How did you work out that number and can you explain ecological footprint and Biocapacity? It’s all Greek to me.

I’d like to see the details too but on this occasion I find myself being supportive of Pebble’s stance.

What is true is that our fisheries are but a shadow of their former selves because we’ve taken to much from the Sea - some of which we’re then misguided enough to sell to other countries - and that we import roughly half of what we eat. So in terms of sustainability our population is already too large and net migration makes the problem worse.
https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/

Ask a straightforward question on this thorny subject and all one gets is almost endless meaningless waffle, false accusations of racism and obfuscation. Nothing convincing at all.
I shall continue to trust the results of my personal observations and experiences.

Al

Overpopulation is the Elephant in the room.

[Jdsk]

Ask a straightforward question on this thorny subject and all one gets is almost endless meaningless waffle, false accusations of racism and obfuscation. Nothing convincing at all.
I shall continue to trust the results of my personal observations and experiences.

The post immediately after your question linked to the best available summary of the relation between recent migration and housing.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

Ask a straightforward question on this thorny subject and all one gets is almost endless meaningless waffle, false accusations of racism and obfuscation. Nothing convincing at all.
I shall continue to trust the results of my personal observations and experiences.

The post immediately after your question linked to the best available summary of the relation between recent migration and housing.

Jonathan

Fair comment Jonathan, the post was yours and perfectly reasonable. On the other hand your few lines could easily get lost amongst the very many lines of other stuff. I won’t use Al’s description but it don’t seem far from the truth .

[simonineaston]

Overpopulation is the Elephant in the room.

Toot toot go Dumbo... of course it is. People are inclined to bang on about how readily in fact we can feed populations of this & that - but miss the simple point. That the bigger the party the bigger the mess...
However, fear not, as the planet have a super simple solution up its sleeve. It'll probably take out most higher animals, so Dumbo going too but hey ho, c'est la vie - or not as the case may be ! Can't make omelettes without breaking eggs, as they say...

[Carlton green]

Overpopulation is the Elephant in the room.

Toot toot go Dumbo... of course it is. People are inclined to bang on about how readily in fact we can feed populations of this & that - but miss the simple point. That the bigger the party the bigger the mess...
However, fear not, as the planet have a super simple solution up its sleeve. It'll probably take out most higher animals, so Dumbo going too but hey ho, c'est la vie - or not as the case may be ! Can't make omelettes without breaking eggs, as they say...

Quite. Here in the UK we can’t control what the rest of the world does but we can determine what we do and we can try to provide best practice models for other countries to follow. Part of our problems here are due to overpopulation and having significantly unbalanced net migration isn’t helping us.

Unless humanity acts Mother Nature will put things right but it won’t be in some kind way. It’s better by far for us to be thinking of acting before she does, I’d quite like my Children and Grandchildren to have a future.