Help choosing ebike

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
kitkat
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Joined: 4 May 2022, 8:44am

Help choosing ebike

Post by kitkat »

Hi. I’m looking to purchase my first electric bike. I will be using it occasionally for leisure on cycle paths, which could consist of road, gravel,grass and possibly dirt tracks. I also live where there are lots of hills so I need something that means I can ride up the hills.
I’m female and want a step through as I find them easier to get on as I’m 5ft4. The problem I’m finding is that I like pretty city bikes. E.g pastel colour Pendleton, pashley etc with a basket, but I can’t seem to find any pretty hybrid bikes, only city bikes.
Also the other half is saying I need suspension, mid motor and disk brakes. All which are making my search even narrower.

Can someone tell me if I really do need a mid motor or will a hub suit my needs?

These are some of the bikes I’ve narrowed my search down to. Would someone be able to let me know if they’re ok? Or if anyone knows of any pretty pastel hybrid bikes. My budget is £2k
Thank you
https://voltbikes.co.uk/e-bikes/classic/burlington
https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/electri ... ah-battery
https://wisperbikes.com/shop/e-bikes/st ... p-through/
https://eskute.co.uk/products/polluno-pro
https://www.leoncycle.co.uk/NCM-Milano-Trekking-E-Bike
https://www.damianharriscycles.co.uk/Ha ... ng-4.0-low
stodd
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by stodd »

You almost certainly don't need a mid-motor. They are of benefit for real off-roading, and for really steep hills where having the motor driving via the gears helps.

Downsides of mid-motor:

Faster chain and cassette wear.

Most use proprietary (eg Bosch, Shimano, ...) electrics which are very expensive to repair, and very expensive to replace the battery. Luckily they are mostly reliable and batteries last quite a few years, so you may not have issues where this matters.
~~
Most mid-drives have torque sensing (which gives a more 'natural' feel) and most hub drives have cadence sensing (which allows you to ghost pedal when tired and get drive from the motor with no work from you, just pedal turning). However, there are exceptions both ways. If you do have cadence sensing controller you need a decent one otherwise power delivery can be a bit abrupt.
~~~
Raleigh Motus is another mid-drive to consider.
https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/ ... 7-spd-700c
2022 version ones are probably above your budget.
We are very happy with our older (2016) Motus step-through hub bike (2nd hand in 2018 for £1100).
We fairly often ride it on grass and dry dirt tracks and it copes fine; not dirt tracks when muddy. I think most of your choices above would be fine for this as well.

If ours had to be replaced we'd probably not get another (potential repair issues above) but
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?santana3
It'll just fit, but might be on the large side for you.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by Bonzo Banana »

Don't assume all mid-drives are better at going up hills. You do get some mid-drive motors with 60Nm or less and if its got gearing for example 42T chainring and 34T maximum cog at the rear plus general power losses through the chain you can be down in the 40Nm area less than some hub motors. The real hill climbing ebikes are e-mountain bikes with 80Nm or more of torque and low gearing.
hemo
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by hemo »

I think it was Tony Lee at Woosh bikes who once said the Nm output of a mid drive is only at the motor and at the actual wheel is approx. half the quoted value, where as a hubs nm value is already in the place it needs to be.
Some years ago he even produced the graphs/figures to explain the numbers on pedelecs forum.
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Audax67
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by Audax67 »

If you already have a bike you might do well to look into swapping the back wheel for a motorized one. I stuck a locally-built motor into one of my old Audax bikes and it flies. It's great on hills as long as I don't stop pedalling, which is not a great idea on hills anyway. I recently took mine over a col with a 400 metre height gain, and it was sheer pleasure.

I've read that mid-drive motors give you more of a kick when you set off, whereas a hub motor starts gently. I can bear out the latter assertion. A chum who uses a mid-drive tried mine the other day and complained when he got back that the motor didn't start off immediately, so I gather that the first bit is true too. My bike weighs 10 kilos less than his, too.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
stodd
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by stodd »

Audax67 wrote: 5 May 2022, 10:24am I've read that mid-drive motors give you more of a kick when you set off, whereas a hub motor starts gently. I can bear out the latter assertion. A chum who uses a mid-drive tried mine the other day and complained when he got back that the motor didn't start off immediately, so I gather that the first bit is true too. My bike weighs 10 kilos less than his, too.
The difference is mainly the sensor and controller. Torque sensing is mostly on mid-drive and cadence on hub drive, but that is not always the case.

Torque drive will give power immediately you start riding; power depending on how hard you are pressing the pedals, and on assist setting.

Cadence won't give power till it reliably detects pedal rotation; as little as 1/4 turn on the best systems as much as more than a full turn on the worst. Once it does give power the amount of power depends on the controller and assistance settings. Some controllers give full power at that point, regardless of setting, which can be distracting.(or even dangerous). Others ramp up the power more smoothly, with the amount of power dependent on setting.
PH
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by PH »

stodd wrote: 4 May 2022, 12:04pm Most use proprietary (eg Bosch, Shimano, ...) electrics which are very expensive to repair,
I think this is becoming less the case. There's a service kit for my Bosch CX motor, it includes all those bits likely to wear or give problems, basically a swappable internal unit, current price is £110 plus an hour's workshop time. There's also a standard two year warranty, which resets the clock, I'm hoping to wear mine out in 23 months :wink:
As regards advice to the OP - buy local. I'm quite happy to make the majority of my cycling purchases online, any issues I can''t sort out are easily boxed up and sent back, I didn't feel that would be the case with an E-bike. If you have one near you, Halfords are worth a look, I know they come in for some criticism and I'm sure it's sometimes deserved, however those I know with Carrera E-bikes are generally happy with them and if things do go wrong they tend to be pretty good at sapping stuff (That's the experience in the two local branches anyway)
PH
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by PH »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 5 May 2022, 12:49am The real hill climbing ebikes are e-mountain bikes with 80Nm or more of torque and low gearing.
Quite a few hybrids now also have 85Nm mid drive motors, the Bosch CX comes with different software depending on which type of bike it's fitted to.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by Bonzo Banana »

PH wrote: 5 May 2022, 9:07pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 5 May 2022, 12:49am The real hill climbing ebikes are e-mountain bikes with 80Nm or more of torque and low gearing.
Quite a few hybrids now also have 85Nm mid drive motors, the Bosch CX comes with different software depending on which type of bike it's fitted to.
Fair enough and that means much better hill climbing ability assuming the gearing is fairly low but that extra power through the drivetrain will mean faster drivetrain wear and the extra power in the motor will wear out the nylon cogs and possibly belts faster. I think they did a low power version of the motor so it could be paired to a geared hub without destroying it quickly. However I can't deny if you really want hill climbing ability and don't want to put much effort in yourself its a good solution.
PH
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by PH »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 6 May 2022, 1:59am
PH wrote: 5 May 2022, 9:07pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 5 May 2022, 12:49am The real hill climbing ebikes are e-mountain bikes with 80Nm or more of torque and low gearing.
Quite a few hybrids now also have 85Nm mid drive motors, the Bosch CX comes with different software depending on which type of bike it's fitted to.
Fair enough and that means much better hill climbing ability assuming the gearing is fairly low but that extra power through the drivetrain will mean faster drivetrain wear and the extra power in the motor will wear out the nylon cogs and possibly belts faster.
Is that your experience? It hasn't been mine, I'm still on my original drivetrain, though I have a new chain and cassette ready, I'll check the numbers when I use it later, but it's been 120 - 150 miles a week for eight months. As for the motor wearing faster, they probably thought of that and as I said it comes with a two year warranty.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by Bonzo Banana »

PH wrote: 6 May 2022, 9:10am
Bonzo Banana wrote: 6 May 2022, 1:59am
PH wrote: 5 May 2022, 9:07pm
Quite a few hybrids now also have 85Nm mid drive motors, the Bosch CX comes with different software depending on which type of bike it's fitted to.
Fair enough and that means much better hill climbing ability assuming the gearing is fairly low but that extra power through the drivetrain will mean faster drivetrain wear and the extra power in the motor will wear out the nylon cogs and possibly belts faster.
Is that your experience? It hasn't been mine, I'm still on my original drivetrain, though I have a new chain and cassette ready, I'll check the numbers when I use it later, but it's been 120 - 150 miles a week for eight months. As for the motor wearing faster, they probably thought of that and as I said it comes with a two year warranty.
Obviously there are lots of variables that will effect many things but if you are putting through 3-4x the power through the drivetrain and going up hills at 3x normal rate etc then it will wear faster. Contrast that with hub motors that are mechanically much simpler and actually massively reduce drivetrain wear because their power is delivered directly through the hub. Over 95% of ebikes sold are hub based because they sell at a lower price point and that typically dictates volume of sales yet you only have to look at ebike forums to see ebike faults are mainly mid-drive based and typically high end high torque motors. People often having repeated issues and faults. This is no surprise as mechanically much more complicated and much more demanding of drivetrain components. This does not mean everyone has issues or everyone experiences huge wear rates and chains breaking.

Also mid-drives push the boundaries of what is acceptable for a 250W motor. Bosch motors have been shown to draw over 700W and sometimes close to 800W and this is how they achieve their high torque figure at the crank with a decent rotational speed. Many hub motors peak at far less wattage (not the illegal types obviously) perhaps around 400W maybe 500W. However the more torque limited Bosch motors are in the same ballpark wattage area as hub motors around 400-500W peak.

When you look at the internal of mid-drive motors they are often very complicated and based around a very small motor run at extremely high rpm. There are belts that wear and plastic nylon cogs and all these have to deal with both the power generated by the motor and the cyclists own power which is applied to the drivetrain.

Image

Contrast that to a direct drive hub motor where there are no moving parts at all except the bearings on the axle. If you look at the image below the only moving part you can see is actually the left part, the bearing in the middle and as you can see its a huge bearing that should last many years without issue.

I'm just making the point there is absolutely no surprise that hub motors have massively reduced drivetrain wear and are typically incredibly reliable. It's just what you would expect from a very simple engineering solution that has its own set of disadvantages too but also many hugely superior advantages compared to mid-drive.

Image
kitkat
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by kitkat »

Thank you all for your comments. At least it means I can consider hub motors which will widen my search.
hemo
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by hemo »

I have no problem towing a 100kg laden trailer with a small 1.6kg front hub motor only putting out 120w or so in low PAS level. There are a lot of myths spouted around how hubs are no good but mostly because folks who spout them have never ridden a hub bike for many 1000's of miles.
Last edited by hemo on 16 May 2022, 3:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by Bonzo Banana »

hemo wrote: 12 May 2022, 9:26pm I have no problem towing a 100kg laden trailer with a small 1.6kg front hub motor ony putting out 120w or so in low PAS level. There are a lot of myths spouted around how hubs are no good but mostly because folks who spout them have never ridden a hub bike for many 1000's of miles.
You only have to go into a local cycle shop and listen to the sales banter for high end mid-motor bikes. Everything about mid-drive is great and everything is bad or interior about hub drives but then these people might earn 100s of pounds from commision from the sale. The sales pitch to me seems like the typically 2 truths and 1 lie type of approach. So the customer hears two things he knows to be true and then one so called fact he didn't know but assumes is also true but is the lie. Then you get GCN videos which are really advertising for high end bike products.

The other day I was in a cycle shop and someone was buying a bike I don't know which one to be honest but there was a high cost mid-drive bike by the counter. Anyway the person was buying it through a credit agreement. Anyway I heard something like the price of the bike was £5000 something and there was about £700 interest on top. It's one thing to buy a overpriced, overcomplicated bike if you have a high disposable income but when you can't actually afford to buy it outright it just feels like a lamb to the slaughter. What would £700 interest be 2,3, 4 maybe 5 years of payments. The bike might not even last 5 years and is only guaranteed to 2 or 3 years, less for some components. These types of bikes are highly proprietary, often uneconomic to repair and typically scrapped early despite their high price.

There was a thread on the pedelecs forum and someone had a mid-drive Bosch based ebike with a Shimano Nexus 7 hub. It was absolute rubbish going up hills as it was the owner complaining about it how poor it was. Basically it was tuned for low power in order to protect the Nexus 7 which is Shimano's weakest and least reliable gear hub. The Nexus 7 is actually a 9 speed mechanism with 2 gears mapped out. The gearing on the bike wasn't particularly low either. Basically assistance up hills was very poor and she was really struggling. The complete opposite of the sales pitch she was given.
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squeaker
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Re: Help choosing ebike

Post by squeaker »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 6 May 2022, 9:54am When you look at the internal of mid-drive motors they are often very complicated and based around a very small motor run at extremely high rpm. There are belts that wear and plastic nylon cogs and all these have to deal with both the power generated by the motor and the cyclists own power which is applied to the drivetrain.
Contrast that to a direct drive hub motor where there are no moving parts at all except the bearings on the axle. If you look at the image below the only moving part you can see is actually the left part, the bearing in the middle and as you can see its a huge bearing that should last many years without issue.
Agreed, but I thought that the majority of rear hub drives sold are geared, not direct, due to their lighter weight, higher torque and better power-off pedaling characteristics? This adds complexity!
"42"
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