Hairline crack in carbon frame

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rareposter
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by rareposter »

Psamathe wrote: 10 May 2022, 3:18pm Either they accept it is a dangerous fault in which case they replace/refund or they deny it is a fault in which case they must assume liability should the "worst" happen (i.e. you are continuing to ride it based on their maintaining there is no fault and their rejection of your LBS).
That one won't wash.
The LBS has said "it's a crack, don't ride it".
Sonder / Alpkit have not yet seen the frame and are not in a position to comment on anything.

If he rides the frame and it fails, it'll be entirely his fault for ignoring the advice of the LBS pending inspection by Sonder.

Standard process on warranty is that the manufacturer needs to see it. The request to go to the LBS first may have been a sort of failsafe to ensure that they are actually receiving a potential warranty claim back and not just a slightly scratched frame.
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Paradiddle
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Paradiddle »

rareposter wrote: 10 May 2022, 3:42pm That one won't wash.
The LBS has said "it's a crack, don't ride it".
Sonder / Alpkit have not yet seen the frame and are not in a position to comment on anything.

If he rides the frame and it fails, it'll be entirely his fault for ignoring the advice of the LBS pending inspection by Sonder.

Standard process on warranty is that the manufacturer needs to see it. The request to go to the LBS first may have been a sort of failsafe to ensure that they are actually receiving a potential warranty claim back and not just a slightly scratched frame.
I agree and I think this is exactly why they asked me to bring the bike to the LBS.
Psamathe wrote: 10 May 2022, 3:18pm Maybe highlight that you need a bike for whatever reason (e.g. commuting) and now that they have been notified of the crack, should there be a catastrophic failure resulting in injury you will be holding them liable. Either they accept it is a dangerous fault in which case they replace/refund or they deny it is a fault in which case they must assume liability should the "worst" happen (i.e. you are continuing to ride it based on their maintaining there is no fault and their rejection of your LBS).
I'm not going to threaten them with accident liability as I don't think this will help anyone. I've made my point clear that they have sold me a faulty product that is not fit for their purpose and I'm holding them against their warranty.

I did mention in passing that I have an event that I've paid for in less than 3 weeks and this could be a reason that I lose the entry fee.

Let's see what they come back with tomorrow. Out of the options I gave, I think it makes the most financial sense for them to arrange and send a new frame. It would be more to give a full refund or a full replacement considering they would get back a used bike with a faulty frame.

Although personally I would prefer if they gave a partial refund for the frame so that I have an excuse to buy a frame from elsewhere.
peetee
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by peetee »

Paradiddle wrote: 10 May 2022, 3:10pm
He seems to like the idea of option 2, mentioned that they have Ti frames (even though the website says there will be a wait), but also said that since the Ti frame is more expensive and have a longer warranty I would have the pay for the difference in costs.
I bet he does like option 2. Minimum outlay for them, no frame disposal costs and the possibility of the profit of a more expensive frame to offset the expense of their time spent being gracious to you.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
slowster
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by slowster »

peetee wrote: 10 May 2022, 5:58pm
Paradiddle wrote: 10 May 2022, 3:10pm
He seems to like the idea of option 2, mentioned that they have Ti frames (even though the website says there will be a wait), but also said that since the Ti frame is more expensive and have a longer warranty I would have the pay for the difference in costs.
I bet he does like option 2. Minimum outlay for them, no frame disposal costs and the possibility of the profit of a more expensive frame to offset the expense of their time spent being gracious to you.
I agree. OP if they wish to send you a replacement frame, then Alpkit should also cover the cost of a professional mechanic/LBS transferring the parts over to the new frame, even if you choose to do it yourself (assuming you have all the necessary tools).

If the replacement frame is not the exact same model, e.g. if it is the titanium version, it is possible/probable that not every part can be transferred over, e.g. compare seat post diameters, seat tube diameters (for front mech clamp size), bottom bracket standards etc.
fivebikes
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by fivebikes »

Looked on the Alpkit website and saw they have dropped their carbon range. They have an eBay clearance store with a few frames in aluminium and carbon between £150 and £300. For example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224823210773 ... Sw9bZh~YwK
The single titanium offering is £1000. They must have sold a few of the carbon models if that’s all that remain….or perhaps returned them to maker if faults emerged?
Hope it’s resolved to your satisfaction!
Jules59
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Jules59 »

Last time I looked the waiting list for a Ti Colibri stretched to 2023.
I went elsewhere.
Jamesh
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Jamesh »

fivebikes wrote: 10 May 2022, 10:44pm Looked on the Alpkit website and saw they have dropped their carbon range. They have an eBay clearance store with a few frames in aluminium and carbon between £150 and £300. For example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224823210773 ... Sw9bZh~YwK
The single titanium offering is £1000. They must have sold a few of the carbon models if that’s all that remain….or perhaps returned them to maker if faults emerged?
Hope it’s resolved to your satisfaction!
Odd they have no forks?

Do they gave issues with forks?

Is the cobreli a gravel bike?
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Paradiddle
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Paradiddle »

slowster wrote: 10 May 2022, 6:53pm
peetee wrote: 10 May 2022, 5:58pm I bet he does like option 2. Minimum outlay for them, no frame disposal costs and the possibility of the profit of a more expensive frame to offset the expense of their time spent being gracious to you.
I agree. OP if they wish to send you a replacement frame, then Alpkit should also cover the cost of a professional mechanic/LBS transferring the parts over to the new frame, even if you choose to do it yourself (assuming you have all the necessary tools).

If the replacement frame is not the exact same model, e.g. if it is the titanium version, it is possible/probable that not every part can be transferred over, e.g. compare seat post diameters, seat tube diameters (for front mech clamp size), bottom bracket standards etc.
I'll see what I can get them to agree to today. I won't be doing it myself as I don't have the tools or skills to transfer a whole groupset.

I've had a look at the compatibility of the parts against the Ti Colibri and also frames from other manufacturers. Everything seems to fit with the 68mm BSA BB, 12x148 TA and flat-mount disk brakes. The only thing that may not fit is the front derailleur. It's braze-on on the carbon and band-on for pretty much all of the Ti, Al, or steel frames I've seen. However I understand that you can get a band-on adaptor for this.
fivebikes wrote: 10 May 2022, 10:44pm Looked on the Alpkit website and saw they have dropped their carbon range. They have an eBay clearance store with a few frames in aluminium and carbon between £150 and £300. For example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224823210773 ... Sw9bZh~YwK
The single titanium offering is £1000. They must have sold a few of the carbon models if that’s all that remain….or perhaps returned them to maker if faults emerged?
Hope it’s resolved to your satisfaction!
Thanks for this link. This is useful. It's quite worrying to see how many carbon frames they are selling and how cheap they are. I also see a medium carbon frame in a different colour and yet the rep told me they don't have any in stock anymore.
Jamesh wrote: 11 May 2022, 8:08am Odd they have no forks?

Do they gave issues with forks?

Is the cobreli a gravel bike?
It's meant to be an all-road bike, just short of gravel. Hopefully no issues with forks too. It could be that they use the stock of forks that they have as replacements or in the other builds that they sell.
rareposter
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by rareposter »

Paradiddle wrote: 11 May 2022, 9:08am
I'll see what I can get them to agree to today. I won't be doing it myself as I don't have the tools or skills to transfer a whole groupset.
Warranty would normally cover the cost of transferring your old components onto a replacement frame. The shop that does the rebuild just bills the frame supplier for their time and labour rather than charging you.
It does not always cover the cost of replacement parts should some of them not fit - that one is a bit of a grey area and can be argued both ways.
Paradiddle wrote: 11 May 2022, 9:08am I also see a medium carbon frame in a different colour and yet the rep told me they don't have any in stock anymore.
If it's on their ebay Outlet Store, it won't be registering as new stock. Outlet is for situations where they may be offloading ex-hire / ex-demo bikes or where the bike has been damaged in transit / on the shop floor and they've just salvaged what they can.

Road.cc have just revised / updated their Warranty Guide, it's worth a read:
https://road.cc/content/feature/why-you ... nty-268653
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Paradiddle
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Paradiddle »

rareposter wrote: 11 May 2022, 9:31am Warranty would normally cover the cost of transferring your old components onto a replacement frame. The shop that does the rebuild just bills the frame supplier for their time and labour rather than charging you.
It does not always cover the cost of replacement parts should some of them not fit - that one is a bit of a grey area and can be argued both ways.

Road.cc have just revised / updated their Warranty Guide, it's worth a read:
https://road.cc/content/feature/why-you ... nty-268653
Thanks for the warranty guide. I've just had another chat with Sonder and the only options they go with are a full refund or swapping the frame out. They wouldn't do a partial refund just for the frame or replace with a non-road model. If I choose to swap the frame then the labour fee of transferring the components would be covered by them.

If I go for the Aluminium Colibri frame, they would refund me for the cost difference. For the Ti frame, I'll have to pay extra for the cost. They will confirm with me how much that would be. Depending on the cost of the Ti upgrade, I may consider a full refund and getting a non-Sonder bike so I never have to deal with Alpkit again.

As predicted, they also insist on getting the bike sent back to them. Collection will be arranged and covered although I have to find a suitable box to pack it myself.
thirdcrank
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by thirdcrank »

I've done a certain amount of consumer advice at the CAB and similar and one of the first things to identify is what the client hopes to achieve. This can then be looked at in the context of consumer rights etc/

The options offered by the retailer here - if viewed from the POV of a purchaser with a dud frame - seem pretty good to me, particularly the full refund.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Bonefishblues »

thirdcrank wrote: 11 May 2022, 12:31pm I've done a certain amount of consumer advice at the CAB and similar and one of the first things to identify is what the client hopes to achieve. This can then be looked at in the context of consumer rights etc/

The options offered by the retailer here - if viewed from the POV of a purchaser with a dud frame - seem pretty good to me, particularly the full refund.
They do.
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Paradiddle
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Paradiddle »

thirdcrank wrote:I've done a certain amount of consumer advice at the CAB and similar and one of the first things to identify is what the client hopes to achieve. This can then be looked at in the context of consumer rights etc/

The options offered by the retailer here - if viewed from the POV of a purchaser with a dud frame - seem pretty good to me, particularly the full refund.
Thanks for the input thirdcrank. Great to know that they're following a process. At the very least I've learnt a lot about consumer rights through this whole ordeal!
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Paradiddle
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by Paradiddle »

I've started taking off my saddle, pedals and bottle cages and I thought to check the damage further.

In case anyone is interested, I took a 500 lumen torch and put it against the part of the damaged chainstay. Lo and behold the light comes out of the other side through the crack. I might not have an x-ray machine but to me this looks quite bad.
IMG_20220511_131842.jpg
thirdcrank
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Re: Hairline crack in carbon frame

Post by thirdcrank »

My experience of giving consumer rights advice is not recent, and I was never any sort of expert. We used to have a flow-chart (?) to work through and a helpline to ring when the going got tough. I live almost within shouting distance of the West Yorkshire Trading Standards at Gildersome and they've been hugely helpful with my own occasional problems. That sort of service to retail customers was one of the first casualties of the Coalition Government's cuts. I've avoided earlier comment because I'm so out-of-date.

However, in the apparent absence of consequent loss - eg injury through the bike collapsing under you, I cannot - as a layman - see a fairer resolution than a no-quibble full refund.
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