Hairline crack in carbon frame

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the retailer you bought it from, not the manufacturer, is accountable. The trouble is that after six months the burden of proving it faulty falls to the buyer.

[531colin]

If its failed in less than a year of amateur use, then it isn't of "merchantable quality".

Its also a mickey take for them to tell you to get somebody to check it out.......why should somebody who has nothing invested in the bike (and made no money from the sale, as they didn't sell it) check it out for nothing? Why should you pay for somebody to examine a bike which you bought in good faith?

[Dingdong]

He also had a look to see if they have any leftover frame left lying around and unfortunately it looks like they don't.

That's the money shot, they've had so many returns, there's no way that are going to commit to another order from their Chinese supplier.

Like I said, this is quite an old fashioned carbon frame lay up, and unfortunately the crack is in the worst possible/highest mechanical stress part of the superstructure of the frame. I would definitely be chasing them for a "new for old" replacement frame. Carbon Frames like this, imported from China (probably painted and branded there too) get very regular updates, as new frame designs come onstrean on a regular basis.

Like I said I would definitely be harassing them for a new for old replacement. This is an extremely difficult repair and i doubt you could be confident for its long term integrity. Regardless of what they say on the phone, keep pushing for a replacement. And escalate the call constantly Just keep with the mantra 'Ib want to speak to your manager', and if he's not available, just stay on the line till he is! Accept no alternative! Just say no!

[Paradiddle]

I took the bike to my LBS today and the mechanic confirmed that the frame is indeed faulty and the bike is unsafe to ride. Similar to what a few of you have said, he said Sonder (as manufacturer and retailer) should refund or replace the bike completely as it is still under warranty and the fault is on the product rather than me. He also confirmed that the creak that I started to hear a couple of days ago is very likely from the frame as the bottom bracket and other parts look to be in "immaculate" condition.

I have just sent Sonder a strongly worded email reconfirming what they told me over the phone, the verdict from the mechanic, and that I would like a full refund or replacement of at least similar value to the bike I bought. I have again conveyed my utter disappointment and asked them to have this escalated to whoever is in charge of their "Alpine Bond". I will call them again tomorrow and will keep going until they get this sorted.

Thanks again all for your input and support on this. I'll provide an update if there's any progress.

[Jdsk]

That's progress.

Do you have or can you get that opinion on the fault in writing?

Keep records of all communications, and if they're not already written down then write and date them as soon as possible.

What's your estimate of the total value... this could end up in the small claims process.

Jonathan

[Dingdong]

Good luck. If the email fails to illicit a proper response, get on the phone and don't get off it till you can speak to someone who is in a position to offer you a replacement immediately.

[Dingdong]

It's my experience that people in middle management absolutely detest having to argue the toss with the general public, and normally fold like a cheap shirt just to get you to hang up!

[rareposter]

I have just sent Sonder a strongly worded email reconfirming what they told me over the phone, the verdict from the mechanic, and that I would like a full refund or replacement of at least similar value to the bike I bought. I have again conveyed my utter disappointment and asked them to have this escalated to whoever is in charge of their "Alpine Bond". I will call them again tomorrow and will keep going until they get this sorted.

You'll usually get a lot further if you're just normal and polite.
Demanding replacements, putting your own deadlines on it, calling every day etc isn't going to get you very far. They'll be well aware of the law, consumer rights, customer service and so on, they'll sort you out - potentially seeing as the frame isn't a current model offering options of repairing your existing frame, or an "equivalent value" Ti, Alu or Steel frame.

Work with them, it'll get sorted out. Good luck!

[Nearholmer]

What's your estimate of the total value... this could end up in the small claims process.

I have a feeling that in cases like this, the route for redress is via the local trading standards officer, who can apply for an injunction against the supplier if they fail to do the right things. The trading standards officer will also know the relevant law inside out, and advise you without charge.

But, I’d be optimistic that the supplier will do the right thing, because (a) they know the law too, and (b) most reputable suppliers value their reputation, and in the age of social media know that it can be trashed in seconds.

I had a serious issue with a bike supplied by Halfords and once they’d realised they couldn’t quickly get parts to fix it, they replaced it and gave me a rather good rack and set of panniers to shut me up (“gesture of good will”), and I had only been very politely threatening, mentioning trading standards and social media only in passing.

[Paradiddle]

Do you have or can you get that opinion on the fault in writing?

Keep records of all communications, and if they're not already written down then write and date them as soon as possible.

What's your estimate of the total value... this could end up in the small claims process.

I don't have the opinion in writing but I did confirm that the mechanic is ok to provide it if it comes down to that. Also as others have said on this thread, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the LBS to diagnose the fault. They didn't benefit a penny from the sale of the bike or even providing the confirmation of the fault. I would also rather this is resolved without going through the legal route.

Good luck. If the email fails to illicit a proper response, get on the phone and don't get off it till you can speak to someone who is in a position to offer you a replacement immediately.

Thank you. That's what I've been told as well. This is why I've asked for the matter to be escalated and have been quoting their warranty policy.

You'll usually get a lot further if you're just normal and polite.
Demanding replacements, putting your own deadlines on it, calling every day etc isn't going to get you very far. They'll be well aware of the law, consumer rights, customer service and so on, they'll sort you out - potentially seeing as the frame isn't a current model offering options of repairing your existing frame, or an "equivalent value" Ti, Alu or Steel frame.

Work with them, it'll get sorted out. Good luck!

I think I've been fair and polite while also conveying how I feel about the quality of their products and services. They bang on about their awards and quality promise as an online retailer. I'm going to challenge them on this especially as I've had a series of poor experience throughout since making a purchase of one product. Right now I simply don't trust them as a retailer. So far they haven't really attempted to make up for their poor service, but if they do I'm willing to work with them to get this resolved.

Getting a replacement Ti frame from them would be one of the better scenarios. I would also consider an Alu model with better groupset. The issue is almost all of Sonder's frames and full bikes on their website have a waiting time ranging from a couple of months to a year. A partial or full refund, while keeping the current groupset, would also be great as it would allow me to cover the costs of getting a new frame, having the bike built by a LBS and not having to deal with Sonder hopefully ever again.

[Jdsk]

What's your estimate of the total value... this could end up in the small claims process.

I have a feeling that in cases like this, the route for redress is via the local trading standards officer, who can apply for an injunction against the supplier if they fail to do the right things. The trading standards officer will also know the relevant law inside out, and advise you without charge.

I wouldn't expect a TSO to get anywhere near applying for an injunction, and I wouldn't expect a court to issue one.

From what we've been told this is a single faulty item from a single vendor. If agreement can't be reached by negotiation the appropriate route is the small claims process (assuming that the claim meets the relevant criteria).

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Do you have or can you get that opinion on the fault in writing?

Keep records of all communications, and if they're not already written down then write and date them as soon as possible.

What's your estimate of the total value... this could end up in the small claims process.

I don't have the opinion in writing but I did confirm that the mechanic is ok to provide it if it comes down to that. Also as others have said on this thread, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the LBS to diagnose the fault. They didn't benefit a penny from the sale of the bike or even providing the confirmation of the fault. I would also rather this is resolved without going through the legal route.

I'd also try and resolve this through negotiation.

If that fails you need the appropriate legal remedy. That is the small claims process. The quality of the evidence is often crucial in that adjudication. The best evidence is contemporaneous and written.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

This is why I've asked for the matter to be escalated and have been quoting their warranty policy.

I'd be using the statutory consumer protection as well as any warranty.

If its failed in less than a year of amateur use, then it isn't of "merchantable quality".

Yes.

Jonathan

[Paradiddle]

Today's update:

I gave Sonder a ring this morning to get them to read my email and reinstate the comments from the LBS. He said he would speak to the head of product to see what the options are.

He did call me back after, asking me to send the bike in so that they could check if the crack is on the paint or structural. I flipped a bit at this point as the only reason I took the bike to the LBS yesterday was because he asked if a mechanic can confirm the damage. He went on about how any frame could get damaged from road surface and putting effort in. To which I responded saying the bike is still new and with a road bike "putting effort in" is part of normal use. Used the not of "merchantable quality" argument suggested here. I asked to speak to the head of product or manager and of course they conveniently aren't around.

At this point I asked them what my options are. The service rep says he doesn't want to confirm anything as he still needs to confirm, but also asked me what I would like them to do.

I told him that ideally it would be one of the following:
1. a complete replacement road bike with similar specs
2. send me an equivalent or better frame and I get to keep my current bike for the groupset and wheels to be transferred over
3. a full refund so that I can purchase a new bike
4. a partial refund while keeping the components so that I can buy a replacement frame

He said that he will check if any of the options are feasible and give me an update tomorrow.

He seems to like the idea of option 2, mentioned that they have Ti frames (even though the website says there will be a wait), but also said that since the Ti frame is more expensive and have a longer warranty I would have the pay for the difference in costs.

The Sonder saga continues...

[Psamathe]

Maybe highlight that you need a bike for whatever reason (e.g. commuting) and now that they have been notified of the crack, should there be a catastrophic failure resulting in injury you will be holding them liable. Either they accept it is a dangerous fault in which case they replace/refund or they deny it is a fault in which case they must assume liability should the "worst" happen (i.e. you are continuing to ride it based on their maintaining there is no fault and their rejection of your LBS).

Ian