What's this ring inside rear bearing?

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lettersquash
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What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Hello,

I'm getting a Scott Speedster 40 road-worthy, and the rear bearing was grungy, so I dismantled it. I've done similar wheel bearings before, but found something odd in this one. As I got into the cassette side of it, I could swear there was a metal ring between the balls and the outer edge that was moving around, but by the time I got the balls out and began cleaning it, that ring seemed to be fixed to the sides, as if I'd jammed it there somehow. I even tried tapping it down inside, but it's lodged there - either that, or I need to adjust my meds and it never moved at all!

I was hoping to post a photo, but I don't have a URL for one - you can't upload images here, or I've got to get past probation first? Anyway, the words should indicate the level of my inexperience well enough!
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Mick F
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by Mick F »

Hello, and good morning. :D
I've just approved your first post, so now you should be able to put photographs on.
Mick F. Cornwall
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Many thanks, Mick. Photos, brill...

Since I posted, I've started to think it's probably the latter - I imagined this bit moving, probably with the grease and grit in there as I moved my gloved finger around - but maybe the photos will confirm this. The bit I'm talking about is nearest to the teeth of the cassette, and the side view shows that it has an inner edge near the bearing cup / race (I'm not all up with the jargon yet - any corrections gratefully received). Bearings I've done before, there's been nothing like that between the inner "cup" and the retaining bit on the "nut".

Cheers,
John
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slowster
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by slowster »

I am not sure, but I think you are referring to the freehub's dust shield, which is/should be a tight friction fit. The video below shows the various parts of a Shimano freehub, including how the dust shield fits.

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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Aha, that could be it, and maybe I'm not going mad after all. So I guess that means it came loose as I took the cone off - as he says it's just a press fit - or it had already got loose in there and maybe was part of the roughness, not that it was rougher than others I've known just to be normal wear. And I was tapping it on, thinking it was going to get loose by tapping it inwards. I can leave it there or tap it out from the opposite end, by the looks of it. I wasn't intending to get into the freehub itself.

Many thanks, slowster!
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531colin
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by 531colin »

It all becomes clearer when you take the cassette off.............more tools to buy, but you'll have to do it one day!
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Had another look today and sure enough it pulls away (outwards). As this is a dust cover to stop dirt getting into the freehub and it moved about a bit, I wonder if the freehub might be pretty grungy too. Might as well service that too if I can. Haven't managed to get the lockring off yet without the right tools - might find someone with a Park FR-5 or take it to a bike shop.

...Yeah, 531colin, I'd buy one, but this is hopefully a one-off job on a Shimano freehub. I'll use the S40 while I fix up my "better" bike.
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Oh, Shimano lockring removers are cheap as chips on eBay. :)
PT1029
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by PT1029 »

Oh, Shimano lockring removers are cheap as chips on eBay. :)
Don't forget you need the chain whip as well.......
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

Update...(it's worse!)...and questions

I got the cassette remover (I already had a chain whip), so I was able to service the bearings. I got as far as the retainer/cup at the end of the freehub, but decided to sluice it out rather than dismantle the freehub, which would mean buying another tool or wellying it with screwdrivers, etc. The freehub's lovely now, but the bearings are either shot or I got grit in as I put it together?

The balls looked discoloured, but felt smooth enough, but the cups and cones were a bit worn, just noticable little pits in places. That drive-side dust cover (which I began this asking what it was), must have been loose or badly fitted for some time, because it had been worn around one side by contact with the balls.

Cleaned and reassembled, I thought all was well - spun cleanly without noticable play while in my hands, but in the bike it was awful. I only loosly put the dust cover back in, so took the wheel off again and tried tapping it into place, as per video, but it doesn't fit anymore. So, in case that was causing the grinding, which was much worse than before I started, I removed it altogether, put wheel back - no, still awful. Removed, allowed a little bit of play, put back - no, still awful...but still feels ok held by the axle in my hand.

So I'm thinking: either I introduced some grit without realising it, or something about putting it in the dropouts compresses it more (but that seems impossible, as it's held by the lock-nuts at each end of the axle, or I'm just not noticing the grinding in my hands, and the frame is amplifying the sound of it. That's kind of question 1: any idea what this is likely to be?

I didn't thoroughly rinse the hub through, so having added more grit might be likely. As I say, there's pitting to the cones, particularly one, and a little roughness in the cups. But I've reassembled worse and they've been smooth enough, not like this.

Second question - if the bearings are shot (I suppose, the cups - I guess I could replace pitted cones?), what would it need - a new hub, presumably - but I don't see the same (Shimano FH-2200) on sale new, so something else, plus the labour charges for fitting? It might be time to move this on to someone who can give it more time.
slowster
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by slowster »

lettersquash wrote: 6 Jun 2022, 9:08pm or something about putting it in the dropouts compresses it more (but that seems impossible, as it's held by the lock-nuts at each end of the axle
The clamping force of a quick release skewer does indeed slightly compress the hollow axle, and consequently the correct adjustment for a cup and cone QR hub is to have a smidgen of play in the bearings, which should disappear when the wheel is placed in the frame and the QR is clamped.

It is possible to make a 'hub vice' which replicates the clamping force when the wheel is not in the frame, but that requires various washers and nuts which might not have (further details here - viewtopic.php?p=1564606#p1564606). Without a hub vice you have to use trial and error to get the adjustment correct.

If grit or other foreign matter did get into the bearings when you greased and re-assembled the hub, then you need to disassemble, clean and re-grease it.
bgnukem
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by bgnukem »

You may have dislodged crud from inside the freehub bearings while rinsing them out which is now in the hub bearings. I'd suggest dismantling again and checking for crud in the hub bearings. The pitted cones and cups would produce some roughness but the clearances in bearings are small and small particles of dirt can make them feel really rough and horrible.

Did you fit new balls? I think Brucey posted on here in the past that fitting decent quality new balls (i.e. graded for size, such as Grade 10 or Grade 25) and setting the correct clearance (i.e. minimal clearance with the QR tightened) could restore pitted cups and cones by re-polishing them slightly.

The QR does affect bearing clearance noticeably as it squeezes the whole axle assembly between the frame dropouts, the locknuts at each end of the axle don't prevent this.
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

slowster wrote: 6 Jun 2022, 10:53pm
lettersquash wrote: 6 Jun 2022, 9:08pm or something about putting it in the dropouts compresses it more (but that seems impossible, as it's held by the lock-nuts at each end of the axle
The clamping force of a quick release skewer does indeed slightly compress the hollow axle, and consequently the correct adjustment for a cup and cone QR hub is to have a smidgen of play in the bearings, which should disappear when the wheel is placed in the frame and the QR is clamped.
Thanks, now you say that I realise it's obvious. I mean, who knew steel could be compressed by force? :lol:
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lettersquash
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Re: What's this ring inside rear bearing?

Post by lettersquash »

bgnukem wrote: 7 Jun 2022, 9:25am You may have dislodged crud from inside the freehub bearings while rinsing them out which is now in the hub bearings. I'd suggest dismantling again and checking for crud in the hub bearings. The pitted cones and cups would produce some roughness but the clearances in bearings are small and small particles of dirt can make them feel really rough and horrible.
Yes, I think crud is probably the explanation - I didn't take quite as much care over the job as I should have. I don't think it would be from inside the freehub, as I cleaned that separately in several changes of white spirit (there's probably something better, but it was what I had). It seems likely to be either from not getting behind the non-drive-side dust cap completely, which I didn't remove and was hard to get into, or just from in the central hole when the axle is moved in and out. I guess I should have washed that out, maybe with the hose and/or a bottle brush.
Did you fit new balls?
No. My main mistake was trying to rush to get this working so I could commute the next day!
I think Brucey posted on here in the past that fitting decent quality new balls (i.e. graded for size, such as Grade 10 or Grade 25) and setting the correct clearance (i.e. minimal clearance with the QR tightened) could restore pitted cups and cones by re-polishing them slightly.
I thought logically that ought to work - the higher surfaces on the cups and cones ought to be worn more than the pits as long as there's no grit. I gave them a bit of a polish with some very fine wet and dry too. But I'll do the job again and put new balls in.

Then, hopefully, I'll only have the gears to fix. I think that's probably just more seized crud-encrusted stuff - cables and derailleurs. I thought the head race was shot at first, but it's the cables stopping it turn. This was given to me by a neighbour, who would be the first to admit he's no mechanic, and he'd had it in the shed for years. When he brought it round, he said he couldn't bring it as it was and gave it a good going over with the pressure-washer first. :shock: Just what bearings with loose dust covers need.

Thanks for your help. Maybe it won't go off to Resurrection Bikes just yet. https://www.facebook.com/resurrectionbikesharrogate/
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