Alfine 11 oil flush

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riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

Hi all,

Did my first hub oil change over the weekend, inclusing the oil flush (with new oil) before putting the final new oil in.

I can see the point in doing this for the first service, when everything is bedding in etc, but it seems a bit over the top for "regular" services? I wouldn't use half my new oil doing a flush on a car engine, so...

I guess Shimano know what they are doing so must have their reasons - perhaps the hub doesn't drain down as well as a car engine?!

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Richard.
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simonineaston
Posts: 8003
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by simonineaston »

Most folks' concern - including Shimano's I imgaine, is the leaving behind of metal scraps... level 1 way of dealing with shards or swarf or what-have-you is a simple drain, level 2 might be to remove the inner lump and give it a good wipe and an eye-ball, level 3 is to install a magnet to attract such swarf as is magnetic, etc. etc.
There's reams of stuff about the Alfine online.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

simonineaston wrote: 16 May 2022, 6:19pm Most folks' concern - including Shimano's I imgaine, is the leaving behind of metal scraps... level 1 way of dealing with shards or swarf or what-have-you is a simple drain, level 2 might be to remove the inner lump and give it a good wipe and an eye-ball, level 3 is to install a magnet to attract such swarf as is magnetic, etc. etc.
There's reams of stuff about the Alfine online.
I'd have thought there'd be more such swarf during the initial "bedding in" 1000Km though? Although I guess any swarf is bad swarf :)

Personally I definitely wouldn't go beyond the Shimano recommendation - with a regime like that (magnet), the hub would outlast me!
Tom60
Posts: 4
Joined: 29 Jul 2022, 6:44am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by Tom60 »

First post
This is my experience with my first Alfine 11 oil change.

Background. I have a Merida Crossway 20 to which I have fitted a Bafang BBS01 (250W) motor with the gear sensor. Because of derailleur issues I decided to change to an IGH. The Rohloff was too expensive and so was the Alfine 11 here in Australia. Eventually I bought from a retailer in Europe accepting i'd probably forfeit the warranty. I opted for the 7001 model without the di2 as the Bafang gear sensor is activated by the wire gear cable.

I decided to do the first oil change at 500km as I have adopted the habit of doing any oil change at twice the recommended frequency. The Shimano oil kit was very expensive so I bought a cheap syringe and hose from eBay for $3. The oil plug in the hub is 6mm so I took an old M6 bolt and drilled a 4mm hole down the middle to give me a 6mm nipple. I bought a Rohloff oil kit because it was both cheaper and came with a separate bottle of flushing oil.

Doing the oil change took 90 minutes. I didn't want to risk damaging the hub seals by applying too much suction with the syringe. 25mls of black oil was removed and replaced with the Rohloff flushing oil. The hub was spun for 5 minutes whilst I simultaneously worked the gear range up and down. Extracting the flushing oil was easier and it was only half as dark as the original oil. Both the original and flushing oil were emptied into a plastic bag which I pegged to the clothesline. I then placed a small neodymium magnet on the outside of the bag where the oil was. The magnet stuck to the outside of the plastic bag. After leaving the bag for 48 hours I took it down and drained the oil before cutting open the bag to see what the magnet had collected. A very fine oily metallic grit. Like a fine abrasive paste.

Even the Rohloff oil seems expensive and I found a forum comment where another Australian had sent the Rohloff oils to a laboratory for analysis. He posted the Lab results. The oil was equivalent to fully synthetic 75W-90 gear oil and the flushing oil was 20% gear oil and 80% White Spirits. NOTE: White Sprits means different things in different countries. I've been to the local auto parts store and purchased a litre of fully synthetic 75W-90 gear oil for $23 and the hardware store sold me a litre of White Spirits for $12. I took 200mls out of the White Spirits bottle replacing it with 200mls from the gear oil. I now have enough oil to do 32 changes.

The next oil change and flush will be at 1000km.

Tom
riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

Tom60, you're halving the recommended service interval, yet using non-Shimano oil? It strikes me as an odd thing to do - using oil that might not be 100% right because it's cheaper, but using twice as much of it?
Tom60
Posts: 4
Joined: 29 Jul 2022, 6:44am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by Tom60 »

riph72, I halved the service interval time because that is always what I've done. I'll examine the old oil at the 1000km change to check for metal content and colour. If there is no metal and the oil looks clear I'll consider extending the service interval to the recommened interval. However my oil change is so cheap I can change ther oil as frequently as I like. I'm prepared to use non Shimano oil because; as I stated; I don't have a warranty on the hub. However I also doubt there is something extra special about the Shimano oil. That was confirmed by the lab results. My oil changes (including the flushing oil) cost me $1.09 each time. The Shimano oil would cost me $30 each change and that doesn't include the flushing oil.
RJC
Posts: 188
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 7:17pm

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by RJC »

You mentioned a lab test on Rohloff oil & flushing oil. While this is interesting it doesn't say anything about Shimano's oil.
riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

Tom60, you doubt there is anything extra special about the Shimano oil, and this is confirmed by a lab test on the Rohloff oil?!

It just doesn't make sense to me - you care enough about your hub to double the oil change frequency, but then use oil that may not be right - even if it looks good when you take it out, how do you know it isn't causing damage to seals, etc?
Tom60
Posts: 4
Joined: 29 Jul 2022, 6:44am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by Tom60 »

There are two separate parts to my original post. Oil Change Frequency and Oil Type. They aren't directly linked.

I prefer to change all my oils at twice the manufacturers recommended frquencies. It's a habit which I believe does no harm and may do some good.

Your car manufacturer doesn't state you must use Ford or GM oil in your Ford or GM and they don't make the oil. Instead they specify a particular grade of oil. I'd be astonished if Shimano or Rohloff make oil. I'm more inclined to believe they use a specific grade of oil which they have bottled in small containers and sold at a premium price. This is borne out by the results of the oil laboratory analysis on the oil.

I doubt there is any significant difference between Shimano and Rohloff oil. Both are oil lubricated internally geared hubs.

I accept in using an oil that isn't branded Shimano I may have void my warranty. However Shimano would have to do an analysis of the oil and prove the oil was significantly different thereby causing the hub to fail. Of course Shimano knows they don't have to do that as no hub owner is going to spend $10,000 on a court case over a $600 hub. In my case the hub was a parallel (grey) import and didn't come with a warranty. So I have nothing to lose by using a significantly cheaper equivalent oil.
jb
Posts: 1782
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by jb »

Tom60 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 2:40am There are two separate parts to my original post. Oil Change Frequency and Oil Type. They aren't directly linked.

I prefer to change all my oils at twice the manufacturers recommended frquencies. It's a habit which I believe does no harm and may do some good.

Your car manufacturer doesn't state you must use Ford or GM oil in your Ford or GM and they don't make the oil. Instead they specify a particular grade of oil. I'd be astonished if Shimano or Rohloff make oil. I'm more inclined to believe they use a specific grade of oil which they have bottled in small containers and sold at a premium price. This is borne out by the results of the oil laboratory analysis on the oil.

I doubt there is any significant difference between Shimano and Rohloff oil. Both are oil lubricated internally geared hubs.

I accept in using an oil that isn't branded Shimano I may have void my warranty. However Shimano would have to do an analysis of the oil and prove the oil was significantly different thereby causing the hub to fail. Of course Shimano knows they don't have to do that as no hub owner is going to spend $10,000 on a court case over a $600 hub. In my case the hub was a parallel (grey) import and didn't come with a warranty. So I have nothing to lose by using a significantly cheaper equivalent oil.
The Rohloff hub gear has nylon dowels in it. If you were to use straight mineral oil there is a risk of these swelling. Otherwise ,as you say almost any oil in either box would enable it the moving parts to out last any other cause of termination. i.e. water/dirt ingress or metal fatigue on the springs.
That's not to say the Rohloff stuff is anything special its just that its compatible with nylon.
Cheers
J Bro
riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

Tom60 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 2:40am There are two separate parts to my original post. Oil Change Frequency and Oil Type. They aren't directly linked.

I prefer to change all my oils at twice the manufacturers recommended frquencies. It's a habit which I believe does no harm and may do some good.

Your car manufacturer doesn't state you must use Ford or GM oil in your Ford or GM and they don't make the oil. Instead they specify a particular grade of oil. I'd be astonished if Shimano or Rohloff make oil. I'm more inclined to believe they use a specific grade of oil which they have bottled in small containers and sold at a premium price. This is borne out by the results of the oil laboratory analysis on the oil.

I doubt there is any significant difference between Shimano and Rohloff oil. Both are oil lubricated internally geared hubs.

I accept in using an oil that isn't branded Shimano I may have void my warranty. However Shimano would have to do an analysis of the oil and prove the oil was significantly different thereby causing the hub to fail. Of course Shimano knows they don't have to do that as no hub owner is going to spend $10,000 on a court case over a $600 hub. In my case the hub was a parallel (grey) import and didn't come with a warranty. So I have nothing to lose by using a significantly cheaper equivalent oil.
Re: Ford/GM, I'd say a significant difference here is they specify an oil grade, whereas Shimano specify an actual oil. The oil difference may be negligible, but there is a difference in terms of specification there.

Shimano/Rohloff almost certainly don't make oil, but that doesn't mean they don't get someone else to make it to their specification.

If you're out of warranty then maybe it is worth a punt I guess, but I definitely wouldn't do this for a hub under warranty - Shimano surely won't need to analyse any oil, they'll just refuse to honour a warranty if the hub condition suggests the wrong oil has been used?
alexnharvey
Posts: 1923
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by alexnharvey »

riph72 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 6:14pm
Tom60 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 2:40am There are two separate parts to my original post. Oil Change Frequency and Oil Type. They aren't directly linked.

I prefer to change all my oils at twice the manufacturers recommended frquencies. It's a habit which I believe does no harm and may do some good.

Your car manufacturer doesn't state you must use Ford or GM oil in your Ford or GM and they don't make the oil. Instead they specify a particular grade of oil. I'd be astonished if Shimano or Rohloff make oil. I'm more inclined to believe they use a specific grade of oil which they have bottled in small containers and sold at a premium price. This is borne out by the results of the oil laboratory analysis on the oil.

I doubt there is any significant difference between Shimano and Rohloff oil. Both are oil lubricated internally geared hubs.

I accept in using an oil that isn't branded Shimano I may have void my warranty. However Shimano would have to do an analysis of the oil and prove the oil was significantly different thereby causing the hub to fail. Of course Shimano knows they don't have to do that as no hub owner is going to spend $10,000 on a court case over a $600 hub. In my case the hub was a parallel (grey) import and didn't come with a warranty. So I have nothing to lose by using a significantly cheaper equivalent oil.
Re: Ford/GM, I'd say a significant difference here is they specify an oil grade, whereas Shimano specify an actual oil. The oil difference may be negligible, but there is a difference in terms of specification there.

Shimano/Rohloff almost certainly don't make oil, but that doesn't mean they don't get someone else to make it to their specification.

If you're out of warranty then maybe it is worth a punt I guess, but I definitely wouldn't do this for a hub under warranty - Shimano surely won't need to analyse any oil, they'll just refuse to honour a warranty if the hub condition suggests the wrong oil has been used?
There are a vast array of oils and greases produced worldwide for industrial uses. There is simply no need for Shimano to have a special oil produced because the oil division specification they need is certainly already made for some other similar purpose.
riph72
Posts: 22
Joined: 26 Oct 2021, 9:03am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by riph72 »

alexnharvey wrote: 3 Aug 2022, 8:29am
riph72 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 6:14pm
Tom60 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 2:40am There are two separate parts to my original post. Oil Change Frequency and Oil Type. They aren't directly linked.

I prefer to change all my oils at twice the manufacturers recommended frquencies. It's a habit which I believe does no harm and may do some good.

Your car manufacturer doesn't state you must use Ford or GM oil in your Ford or GM and they don't make the oil. Instead they specify a particular grade of oil. I'd be astonished if Shimano or Rohloff make oil. I'm more inclined to believe they use a specific grade of oil which they have bottled in small containers and sold at a premium price. This is borne out by the results of the oil laboratory analysis on the oil.

I doubt there is any significant difference between Shimano and Rohloff oil. Both are oil lubricated internally geared hubs.

I accept in using an oil that isn't branded Shimano I may have void my warranty. However Shimano would have to do an analysis of the oil and prove the oil was significantly different thereby causing the hub to fail. Of course Shimano knows they don't have to do that as no hub owner is going to spend $10,000 on a court case over a $600 hub. In my case the hub was a parallel (grey) import and didn't come with a warranty. So I have nothing to lose by using a significantly cheaper equivalent oil.
Re: Ford/GM, I'd say a significant difference here is they specify an oil grade, whereas Shimano specify an actual oil. The oil difference may be negligible, but there is a difference in terms of specification there.

Shimano/Rohloff almost certainly don't make oil, but that doesn't mean they don't get someone else to make it to their specification.

If you're out of warranty then maybe it is worth a punt I guess, but I definitely wouldn't do this for a hub under warranty - Shimano surely won't need to analyse any oil, they'll just refuse to honour a warranty if the hub condition suggests the wrong oil has been used?
There are a vast array of oils and greases produced worldwide for industrial uses. There is simply no need for Shimano to have a special oil produced because the oil division specification they need is certainly already made for some other similar purpose.
This doesn't really change the fact though that unless you buy Shimano's oil, you don't know for sure (unless you lab-test it) that you're using the right oil. Personally I wouldn't chance it for a hub still under warranty (which isn't the case for Tom60).
jb
Posts: 1782
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by jb »

There is nothing magic in the alfine, it's just steel gears running against steel gears and on steel shafts with steel needle rollers, roller sprags and three ball races. You can use hypoid gear oil or sewing machine oil - you won't notice the difference or cycle far enough to see any perceivable benefit between them. The AW three speed didn't specify which oil to use apart from good quality lubricant and the parts aren't much different, infarct most of them got lubricated with 'three in one' household general purpose oil.
Cheers
J Bro
alexnharvey
Posts: 1923
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Alfine 11 oil flush

Post by alexnharvey »

riph72 wrote: 3 Aug 2022, 8:49pm
alexnharvey wrote: 3 Aug 2022, 8:29am
riph72 wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 6:14pm

Re: Ford/GM, I'd say a significant difference here is they specify an oil grade, whereas Shimano specify an actual oil. The oil difference may be negligible, but there is a difference in terms of specification there.

Shimano/Rohloff almost certainly don't make oil, but that doesn't mean they don't get someone else to make it to their specification.

If you're out of warranty then maybe it is worth a punt I guess, but I definitely wouldn't do this for a hub under warranty - Shimano surely won't need to analyse any oil, they'll just refuse to honour a warranty if the hub condition suggests the wrong oil has been used?
There are a vast array of oils and greases produced worldwide for industrial uses. There is simply no need for Shimano to have a special oil produced because the oil division specification they need is certainly already made for some other similar purpose.
This doesn't really change the fact though that unless you buy Shimano's oil, you don't know for sure (unless you lab-test it) that you're using the right oil. Personally I wouldn't chance it for a hub still under warranty (which isn't the case for Tom60).
Sure, some will risk it and some won't. My point is it's not really that complex to find a suitable gear oil given what we already know about the 'Shimano' oil description and the hub parts themselves. The main things to consider are the viscosity, presence of 'yellow' metal bushings or other parts, and plastics and seals that might swell. I think all this is already considered and appropriate oils suggested in older threads on the alfine 11. Plenty of people are running off brand oils for years now without issue.

There's also an important question as to whether Shimano can legally deny a warranty claim on this basis without evidence of incompatibility. Nevertheless, it's probably wise to use to use their oil in the warranty period and avoid any hassles.
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