I hate disc brakes - help!

[Jon in Sweden]

Just to update - I still hate disc brakes! I now have three bikes with them and they are a pain. I had a puncture repair on my Orbea, and must have slightly knocked the caliper when I put the wheel back in. So this mornings hour on the bike was filled with annoying rubbing of the brakes, even after a roadside realignment. They are Tiagra hydraulic calipers.

I then got it onto the stand at home and found that the back calipers were rubbing slightly, albeit more discreetly. So repositioned the caliper there too.

All aligned now, but what a pain! Would have taken seconds with rim brakes at the side of the road.

My gravel bike has cable discs (forget the make but have been told they are very good). I have new pads but the stopping power is crap. I'm a heavy guy and Devon has steep hills but descending can be very tiring.

I feel like a luddite, but really wish that rim brakes weren't about to be consigned the history books.

[Sweep]

I feel like a luddite, but really wish that rim brakes weren't about to be consigned the history books.

surely they are not?
no shortage of pads or rims.
If a shortage of quality new bikes with rim brakes just build your own up?

[mattheus]

I feel like a luddite, but really wish that rim brakes weren't about to be consigned the history books.

surely they are not?
no shortage of pads or rims.
If a shortage of quality new bikes with rim brakes just build your own up?

I'm still optimistic, but see it as a very real threat; or rather, the threat is a very limited choice of low-end components/frames from far fewer manufacturers. I don't want a frame that is disc-ready to mount rim-brakes on.

It's already much harder to buy wheels that are properly designed for inner tubes, not tubeless. Tyres are following.

[rareposter]

All aligned now, but what a pain! Would have taken seconds with rim brakes at the side of the road.

My gravel bike has cable discs (forget the make but have been told they are very good). I have new pads but the stopping power is crap. I'm a heavy guy and Devon has steep hills but descending can be very tiring.

I feel like a luddite, but really wish that rim brakes weren't about to be consigned the history books.

Loosen the two bolts that hold the caliper to the frame. Pull the brake on hard. Tighten the two bolts.
That should really only need doing once - if the discs are rubbing after that it's more likely to be a sticky piston or a slightly out-of-true rotor. Fist thing is just to ride the bike and bang the brake on a couple of times, that normally sorts it all out.

Re the new pads, they need bedding in. Find a descent, ride down it and brake hard a few times, get the brakes hot. It burns off the initial coating and any contaminants.

It's already much harder to buy wheels that are properly designed for inner tubes, not tubeless. Tyres are following.

Generally, tubeless-ready wheels will all take tubes anyway.
What is becoming a concern is finding decent quality QR / rim-brake wheels - most of the middle of the road / mainstream stuff is now thru axle / disc brake with rim brake stuff consigned to either the very lowest end components or super-high-end stuff that you might find on custom-build / classic bikes that people want to keep going.

[mattheus]

... yes but tubeless-ready are not designed properly to take tubes. I didn't say they WILL NOT take tubes

Oh deity, please don't let this lead to another-tubeless-thread because of MY post !!! :O

(Agree with your last para.)

[Biospace]

The marketing industry relies on regular 'improvements', which with something like an upmarket sports car manufacturer soon enough results in the release of a 'Lightweight Special' from which all the unnecessary carp which has been added down the years is removed, restoring the nimble feel of the original. Electric motors, aircon, sunroofs and other weighty nonsense vanish and a premium price is asked.

Constant upgrades are the profit stream for the bike industry, as we know. Lightweight carbon rims benefit from the addition of (weighty) disc braking, which in turn benefits from through axles.

Glinting disc brakes suggest you'll be going faster and harder on your bike (aircraft used them first, of course they're brilliant), which subconsciously helps many choose the product over one lacking them. A more expensive marketing agency is needed to sell the 'Less is More' approach.

[Jdsk]

Glinting disc brakes suggest you'll be going faster and harder on your bike (aircraft used them first, of course they're brilliant)...

This is often stated, but other types of vehicle used them before aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake#History

I think that it's probably because of the specific collaboration between Dunlop and Jaguar:
https://www.jaguarheritage.com/jaguar-h ... sc-brakes/

Jonathan

[swfcdan]

Was thinking of making a post but want to discuss disc brakes too (and my disdain for them).
Living in a hilly area I've always needed to use brakes a lot, but I've had V brakes on older bikes and apart from sometimes squeaking, have always found performance and durability to be much better than disc brakes.

My last 2 bikes have been boardmans and while great bikes otherwise, I have had many issues with the disc brakes. Over the past few years I've gone through many brake pads (even using sintered which are meant to last longer), had to replace a cassette and find they often take time to bed in.

My latest pads are still making scraping noises, even after braking hard on them to try and bed them in. And they seem to require pulling on the lever even further to activate the brakes- this is another thing I've never liked about discs but had to accept, that the level needs pulling much further to get any stopping power (you could just pull the lever a little and brakes would apply on V brakes). I've been back to the bike shop and they say hydraulics aren't an issue, so not much I can do apart from hope they improve a little. Why can't hydraulic brakes be set up to require less pulling on the lever to work?

I'm fed up with them though. I'm not sure V brakes can be swapped in though because the bike is designed purely for discs, is that correct? If I'm stuck with them for now. does anyone have any further tips to help improve braking performance?

[Biospace]

Glinting disc brakes suggest you'll be going faster and harder on your bike (aircraft used them first, of course they're brilliant)...

This is often stated, but other types of vehicle used them before aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake#History

I think that it's probably because of the specific collaboration between Dunlop and Jaguar:
https://www.jaguarheritage.com/jaguar-h ... sc-brakes/

Jonathan

Should've added a after the phrase within the brackets, I was attempting to invoke the sentiments of TCMits (and clearly failing!)

I knew about Lanchester's use of a form of disc brake (they are the real Rolls Royce of British motoring history, if that makes sense?) but wasn't aware of Douglas trialling them, must find out more. Douglas were very well-regarded.

Jaguar was a marvellous company in the 50s and using Dunlop to produce their disc racing brakes was inspired, but they were for use on the racetrack, whereas both Austin Healey and Jensen used them on road-going production cars before Jaguar, I believe. The TR3 might have had optional disc braking, too.

All of them are shadowed by the French giant, Citroën, who introduced the first mass-production car with disc brakes in 1955. It's an often overlooked fact on account of the remarkable hydraulics which powered and connected the suspension and brakes, in the way electronics do for modern cars. I think their hydraulic suspension technology is used today by JCB and as the basis for McLaren's own hydraulically controlled and 'sprung' (there are electronically controlled pressurised spheres within) damper circuits.

[wirral_cyclist]

My last 2 bikes have been boardmans and while great bikes otherwise, I have had many issues with the disc brakes. Over the past few years I've gone through many brake pads (even using sintered which are meant to last longer), had to replace a cassette and find they often take time to bed in.

My latest pads are still making scraping noises, even after braking hard on them to try and bed them in. And they seem to require pulling on the lever even further to activate the brakes- this is another thing I've never liked about discs but had to accept, that the level needs pulling much further to get any stopping power (you could just pull the lever a little and brakes would apply on V brakes). I've been back to the bike shop and they say hydraulics aren't an issue, so not much I can do apart from hope they improve a little. Why can't hydraulic brakes be set up to require less pulling on the lever to work?

I'm fed up with them though. I'm not sure V brakes can be swapped in though because the bike is designed purely for discs, is that correct? If I'm stuck with them for now. does anyone have any further tips to help improve braking performance?

Scraping noise has nothing to do with bedding in, rather the disc isn't centred in the caliper - should have been spotted by the bike shop BUT as Boardmans are Halfords and therefore not really a bike shop (nearer to a box shifter) you basically had a useless 'tech' setting up for sale and when querying brakes. I know some Halfords techs can be very good, but they do migrate to be bike mechanics elsewhere (*). Soggy lever is probably 'just' a bit of air in the hydraulics (or crap cables) it is trivial to bleed them (see ebay and epic bleed solutions). Bleeding might need doing every 1-2 years depending on mileage. I had 10,000 miles out of my first brake pads, I've just replaced the second set at 18,000 miles and also did a brake bleed, old fluid was mucky although the brakes still worked perfectly. I got slightly better brake feel - to the point I nearly had a clipless moment with my new cleats/pedals (**).

* yes a mechanic is better than a tech, one follows a flow chart, the other uses intuition and experience.
** as a general rule never change several things at once as diagnosis is harder (***)
*** not in this case as all of it was completely forseeable, well in hindsight it was

[PH]

For those suffering brake rub after frequent adjustment, the cause may be that the mounts need facing. This doesn't always need doing to every frame or fork, so often gets left.
If you like a firm feeling at the lever, you need to slightly over fill the system, it'll also need a top up as the pads wear, you do of course then have to let a bit out when you replace the pads. It sounds a lot of bother, but Epic Bleed say it should take 5 minutes
https://epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/gu ... mini-bleed

Disc brakes, particularly hydraulics, do take a bit of learning, plus some trial and error to get them set up just as you like them, If you're not prepared to do that, or are going to rely on a bike shop to cure every niggle, then yes, you're probably better off with rim brakes, For everyone else, discs, particularity hydraulics, are better in every way.

[pwa]

For those suffering brake rub after frequent adjustment, the cause may be that the mounts need facing. This doesn't always need doing to every frame or fork, so often gets left.
If you like a firm feeling at the lever, you need to slightly over fill the system, it'll also need a top up as the pads wear, you do of course then have to let a bit out when you replace the pads. It sounds a lot of bother, but Epic Bleed say it should take 5 minutes
https://epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/gu ... mini-bleed

Disc brakes, particularly hydraulics, do take a bit of learning, plus some trial and error to get them set up just as you like them, If you're not prepared to do that, or are going to rely on a bike shop to cure every niggle, then yes, you're probably better off with rim brakes, For everyone else, discs, particularity hydraulics, are better in every way.

Except maybe on a tandem. I had one fail completely on a tandem, so the lever could be pulled back to the bar with no braking taking place. I'd not ride a tandem in hilly country if it only had hydraulic disc brakes. For solo bikes (which are the great majority, of course) your view stands up better.

If I were going out to buy a solo bike for off-roading today I'd look for the best, most reliable hydraulic system, whichever that is, simply because that is the direction the market has taken and it is therefore the easiest way for us to go as consumers. Rather than being Canute on the beach, defying the tide. And I'd learn how to run the system.

[wirral_cyclist]

Except maybe on a tandem. I had one fail completely on a tandem, so the lever could be pulled back to the bar with no braking taking place.

What was failure mode? Pad fade from overheating, or fluid overheating fade? What type of fluid mineral or DOT?

I guess risk of brake problems is why good tandems have a third brake, usually a big finned hub brake.

[Cyckelgalen]

We have currently at home all types of brakes. The Shimano XT hydraulic disc brakes on a KTM tourer are just a dream: you can stop confidently on any gradient with only your little finger. Never had any issues, squeaking, rubbing etc, and I have done nothing beyond changing pads for about 5 years. I know I should bleed and replace fluid and all that, but their performance has always been superb.
The cable discs on a Trek 520 are good, nothing like the XT hydraulics, but I still rate them above rim brakes. They require more faffing around to readjust as the pads wear but still, they work well and are a simple, easily repairable piece of kit. They are Hayes single piston actuation calipers, not the ubiquitous TRP Spyres that create more problems than they solve with their dual piston movement and many design flaws.
The V-brakes on a folding bike are fine and bite well, but on long tours their performance fades when they overheat on long descents or in wet weather. I feel far more confident with the cable discs, but I admit it's not a fair comparison, one being a folder and the other a fully fledged steel tourer.
Finally, I still use my 90´s steel bike with cantilevers but feel a bit if a Kamikaze on serious rides. I have read all about yoke angles, straddle cables, toe in etc, and I cannot get them to work anywhere near the V's.

[Biospace]

If I were going out to buy a solo bike for off-roading today I'd look for the best, most reliable hydraulic system, whichever that is, simply because that is the direction the market has taken and it is therefore the easiest way for us to go as consumers. Rather than being Canute on the beach, defying the tide. And I'd learn how to run the system.

For anyone who relies on others for setting up their brakes, that's good advice. Even for those of us who do the work ourselves and who don't have a stash of spares it probably holds true, since as time goes by rim brakes could eventually become the preserve of the supermarket bike, so decent rim brake components could steadily reduce in choice/rise in price.

Except maybe on a tandem. I had one fail completely on a tandem, so the lever could be pulled back to the bar with no braking taking place. I'd not ride a tandem in hilly country if it only had hydraulic disc brakes. For solo bikes (which are the great majority, of course) your view stands up better.

Or, by definition, a bike loaded to a similar weight as a tandem? Hydraulic disc brakes on bikes induce such faith and adoration in their users that unless you know about fluid boiling points, the hygroscopic nature of some fluid and the amount of energy being converted to heat in a small steel disc and the caliper clamping onto it, total failure is not something ever considered.

By definition, total brake failure through overheated fluid will only ever happen in the most dangerous situations, unless they fail at a point in a descent where the road ahead is straight and free of obstacles.

A bike disc is so small and thin there is barely any heat sink, so excess heat is lost to the caliper very quickly. The flow of air will likely be reduced when panniers are used, further compounding the problem.

As there are warning stickers for ensuring front wheels are properly located and tightened in the forks, perhaps there should be something for hydraulic braked bikes? I met one person who'd experienced such a failure, he was still shaken a week later.